[Patrick_Mucci]

Sometimes a default mechanism when creativity is stifled ?

Watching the Honda it seemed like there was an abundance of holes where water came into play.

And not just in play at the far flanks, but tight, into the playing corridors.

While it might make for good theatre and TV, is this what you'd want to play on a daily basis ?

[BCowan]

I agree, except I think its boring on TV as well.  Why can't more man made creeks be created vs Ponds?  I hate ponds as much as Jkava hates fans. 

[Mark_Fine]

You mean like at 11, 12, 13, 15 and 16 at Augusta?  Sure makes those holes boring 

Variety guys.  That is the key.

[BCowan]

Mark,

   didn't know #12 and #13 where ponds?  I much prefer the original ANGC.   

I guess Dr Mack didn't know what he was doing according to you   

[Scott McWethy]

Pat, I agree with you on this.  I think the courses with an abundance of water are created that way because they don't have a good variety of design to challenge players.  Maybe it's the land that determines that or the owners vision from the get go in instructing the designer.  What I dislike the most about courses with a lot of water is that it takes away creativity for the player.  If you hit the ball in the water, it's a penalty stroke and drop.  If you look at a golf course like Pinehurst #2, there is a lot of areas where you can get into trouble, but the players in most cases can play a shot to get back into the hole and try to save par or bogey.  At least there are options.  Never played Doral but it seems like there is a lot of water on that course.  To me, it's much less enjoyable when I am trying to avoid water hazards all day long.

[Andrew Bernstein]

Most things are better appreciated when used tastefully and sparingly. Water of any kind, whether it be ponds or creeks, fall into this category.

[Peter Pallotta]

What comes first, the abundance of water-features or the routing-design that incorporates them?

Peter

[noonan]

Does that make 18 at Sawgrass a bad hole?

[Ian Mackenzie]

I am not an engineer or landscape expert.
But PGA National is in Florida - where the ground is flat and the water table lies just a few feet below ground.

So, while I think your query has merit for sure, it also needs to be placed in context with its specific environment (literally).
In this case, and in the case of (WAG) 80%+ of all (southern) FL courses I have played, a course's mounding and its green elevations are built with adjacent dirt that is excavated on-site. In place of the dirt then lies a man-made pond that is integrated into the fairway, green and overall course strategy as a water hazard. Necessity over

So perhaps the local envirnmental realties dictate an architect's placement and integration of water as a hazard.
If H2O was really such a valued architectural feature, then why hasn't it been used in the UK and Europe in larger amounts?

It may also help define some architects who do, in fact?, use water as a crutch. Doesn't some US golf get criticized by others for being too penal? What is more penal than water - besides OB - as it completely eliminates recovery as an option.

Also, I don't know to what extent the presence of residential real estate, or the flow of water for irrigation, plays a role in the topic, Pat.

To me, you play in FL, you need to be ready to take a bit more club and get the water out of play.
Just like in the desert with large waste areas.
Just like in Scotland with heather and gorse.
Just like on many "new restorations" with large areas of tall grass. (I hear Chicago Golf Club is taking out much of the tall fescue put in before the Walker Cup. Rumor, of course.)

Florida has water everywhere and, no, I would NOT want to play there everyday...;-)

[Ian Mackenzie]

did not mean to post again and dont know how to delete this.

[Nigel Islam]

I agree, except I think its boring on TV as well.  Why can't more man made creeks be created vs Ponds?  I hate ponds as much as Jkava hates fans. 

I find creeks much more interesting because if you hit towards a creek there is reason to follow the ball's flight, where with a pond you already know the outcome.

[SL_Solow]

Of course Ian has hit upon the real difficulty.  In order to create features in Florida, the excavation practically necessitates ponds.  Unless there is a significant land form, such as the ridge at Seminole, interest must be created via land movement; on a flat parcel minimalism is difficult.  Note the amount of dirt moved by Tom Doak at the Rawls course.  But in Texas, he didn't have the water table problem.

But that only answers part of the problem because the architect still must determine where to position the water.  In Florida, where the wind blows regularly, placing the water too close to the plying corridors on a regular basis makes for defensive golf for the good players and a miserable slog for mortals.  An occasional heroic shot with a bail out creates interest.  penalties for slight errors magnified by the wind; I think not.

Finally, manufacturing a creek is not only difficult, it doesn't create a lot of fill for shaping.   Augusta was blessed with Raes Creek and the good Dr. used it magnificently.  I also note there are many options on those holes.  Not quite so many on what we are watching this weekend.

[Patrick_Mucci]

You mean like at 11, 12, 13, 15 and 16 at Augusta? 
Sure makes those holes boring 

Those holes don't come close to presenting the same threats found at the Honda

The water on # 11 at ANGC is onerous, whereas on #'s13 and 15 the golfer has a wedge in their hands and the water doesn't present the same threat as that found at the Honda.   # 12, at 157 max, is made more difficult by the consequence of going long as the carry to the green is fairly benign.

# 16's water comes more into play with a back left pin.
The hole's yardage makes the carry fairly benign. 

Variety guys.  That is the key.

Do you see that variety at the Honda ?

[Mark_Fine]

Pat,
Your question was "Is water an architectural crutch?"  Didn't realize you were just talking about PGA National?

Water is just another design feature that has been used forever on golf courses.  Any feature can be great if used wisely and with some discretion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pine Tree, Boca Rio and Indian Creek don't have an abundance of water in play, so I have to wonder if the proclivity to introduce water to Florida courses is an elective decision

[Patrick_Mucci]

You mean like at 11, 12, 13, 15 and 16 at Augusta? 

No Mark, I mean like the 15th, 16th and 17th at PGA National !

Didn't you read the opening post ?

[William_G]

no the earth is mostly water as are we

[Mark_Fine]

Pat,
I read the post but you didn't say "Is water used as an architectural crutch at PGA National".  You made a generalization.  ANY design feature can be used as a "architectural crutch" whether it be bunkers, mounds, trees, fairway contours, funky greens, ..., water!  In Florida there is a lot of marsh and water and it is used a lot!  Sometimes too much. 

In Scotland I find they use a lot of sand dunes and mounds.  I wonder why

[john_stiles]

Ian's post mentions what you might see written regarding some sites in Florida.

With homes tending to be on higher ground,  you need to elevate the fairways and green sites so they are not subject to flooding. And now you can slope some land and/or pipe some water to the new ponds.  So rather than truck in dirt to raise low areas, tendency is to create ponds and take the spoil to elevate the low areas.

Still to Pat's point, imagine it might not be necessary to bring water so close to greens.

[BCowan]

  Ponds aren't needed to create interesting features in Florida, one doesn't have to necessitate ponds, and if ponds are created, they don't have to be in play.  It is so overused and boring arch.  Did the golden age archies build up tee boxes like in the last 25 years?  Naples National had 3 inches of elevation change before construction.  The 9th and 18th holes are the weakest on the course, Bay Hill itis.  Using ponds to wrap greens around in a Cape fashion have been beaten to death.  The sad part is some of the most creative archies have gone that route.  

Sand can be shaped to create ripple effects in the fairway.  

 Heroic arch ala Florida style has been so overused and is a FAD imo.  Wind can be utilized with great tree management.  The way greens are designed can add much needed interest.  

 A Wide/river can be created, its 2015 and utilized for irrigation.  Most of Florida is sand, so there is much to shape with, too much fill can lead to shitty mounding.  Through Mr Jones photos we can see a nice burn that JN created for his FL course in tribute to St Andrews.  

[Andrew Bernstein]

Heroic arch ala Florida style has been so overused and is a FAD imo.

At what point does something hang around long enough for it to outlive fad status? Just because we don't agree with a trend, if it maintains long enough, doesn't it just become reality?

[BCowan]

Andrew,

   Great point.  I look at is I or we have the option to avoid those courses.  I don't think it needs to become a reality on this website, we are suppose to be studied and innovative.  The best way to counter a fad is build your own course.  I've planted my money tree, just hasn't ripened yet 

[Matt Kardash]

I am just amazed that the 15th and 17th holes at PGA National are essentially identical. If the architect would have at least angled the green in the other direction I might throw him a bone. Really lazy stuff.

[jeffwarne]

I am just amazed that the 15th and 17th holes at PGA National are essentially identical. If the architect would have at least angled the green in the other direction I might throw him a bone. Really lazy stuff.

and 14 and 16 are the same too, with 18 being the par 5 version of all of the above

[Mark Fedeli]

I am just amazed that the 15th and 17th holes at PGA National are essentially identical. If the architect would have at least angled the green in the other direction I might throw him a bone. Really lazy stuff.

and 14 and 16 are the same too, with 18 being the par 5 version of all of the above

What's more obnoxiously repetitive, those holes or all the dog leg lefts around water at bay hill?

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