Is water an architectural crutch ?

[jeffwarne]

I know one guy who hated #8 after he sliced his second shot 50 yards off line out into the Pacific Ocean.  But then that hate turned to true love after he hit another ball from the same spot and holed it making one of the wildest and most amazing pars I have ever witnessed  

Played with a guy Monday who is a decent 15 hdcp golfer who suffers from Parkinsons and had been having several severe bouts over the course of the trip (new medication) We were playing a course that started out with water on every hole, often both sides and multiple forced carries. He wasn't having a lot of fun and I was lending him balls at an alarming rate.

We got to a 380 yard hole that I belted a 3 wood and still had 170 back to the pin over a slightly diagonal forced carry-again.
He was about 30 yards behind me so I told him I had 200 and that he was 230, and that it was a par 5 . (three white lies)

 Of course he pulled out a 5 wood and aimed at the green (after his 190 yard drive ) I stopped him and told him to lay up with a 9 iron.
He did, but he duffed it about 30 yards, leaving himself about 170. I told him he was 200 out and to hit the five wood full anyway .
he hit a low liner that skipped and rebounded off the vertical railroad tie wall into the center of the pond.
He then "Tin Cupped" it and hit from the same spot, same club.
he hit the prettiest shot you've ever seen, landed 10 feet short of the hole and leaned against the stick.(we couldn't tell how close it was)
As we were walking across the Bridge (one of many ) his ball settled into the bottom of the hole.
Said it was the best "birdie" he had ever made-I didn't have the heart to correct the math or tell him the actual par!

He went on to birdie the next hole and chipped in for par on the last after I gave him a chipping lesson on the tee.(we were waiting as the group in front was searching the bank of the water for yet another freaking ball )
He left a happy camper!

Jeff,

I know your position and definitely understand it.  But this post is a perfect example of why people WANT water everywhere.  I'm sure that guy didn't give the slightest as to what he shot on that day, but he's going to remember that shot for a long time.

Actually no,
He was miserable the first 9 holes(lost 8 balls and the other guy lost 7 just on the front) and after we were done at the height of his glory he declared he would NEVER go back to that @#@$% awful course/resort again. These guys are billionaires and they were losing my free balls, but they still hated it and the resulting Chinese fire drill of the groups in front hunting, reteeing, retieving and dropping.

[Brent Hutto]

But this post is a perfect example of why people WANT water everywhere.  I'm sure that guy didn't give the slightest as to what he shot on that day, but he's going to remember that shot for a long time.

At the risk of "overthinking" this brings up an interesting (to me) philosophical question.

What do we want out of a round of golf? I'd submit that there are plenty of people who want the chance to hit one or two heroic or remarkable shots in near-impossible situations (given their skill level). For those people, a $300 round at the "Bear Trap" is like a miracle waiting to happen. Interspersed though it may be with 50-75 bucks worth of ProV1's sent to a watery grave.

There are many golfers who want to loosen their girdle and give the ball the biggest wallop they can manage and they want a 7,000-yard course that will let them bomb a few drives way past their shorter-hitting companions and reach greens when lesser players would be laying up. The fact that they bomb a fair number of those shots into areas where their 5-minute search might as well be 5 days for all the good it will do, well them's just the breaks.

Others of us want to find a course where we can play golf the way we think it was intended. Hit the ball, walk to it, hit it again, generally be somewhere around the green in regulation strokes and hopefully have some sort of cool putting or chipping contours to contend with when we get there. Being able to roll the ball advantageously using contours and firm turf is a bonus. Obviously this sort of player is certainly not looking for water hazards threatening every shot and doesn't need anywhere near 7,000 yards.

But it's foolish to pretend the other types of golfers do not exist. All that length and all that water did not come to the game in a vacuum.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brent,

Your "Heroic" shot question fails to address a critical factor.

What are the consequences for failing to execute the "Heroic" shot.

Replaying the same shot, or moving up a bit and facing a similar shot isn't fun and can often ruin a round.

If you don't carry HHA, you go find your ball, play it and move on.

But, having to replay a shot, over and over again on different holes isn't what most golfers want out of a round

[John Kavanaugh]

In my world each water hazard provides me with one chance for failure and each of my three opponents an equal chance.  This gives me a 75% chance of being happy.  I love water hazards.

[Brent Hutto]

Brent,

Your "Heroic" shot question fails to address a critical factor.

What are the consequences for failing to execute the "Heroic" shot.

Replaying the same shot, or moving up a bit and facing a similar shot isn't fun and can often ruin a round.

If you don't carry HHA, you go find your ball, play it and move on.

But, having to replay a shot, over and over again on different holes isn't what most golfers want out of a round

Yet they line up to pay hundreds of dollars for the privilege.

Seems strange to me but the water-choked courses do not seem to sit empty. So I guess they don't even suffer too much from you and me avoiding that type of place!

[John Kavanaugh]

What is so strange about humans loving water?  This notion that a lost golf ball is a tragedy is a farce.  Golf is the rare game where you are likely to finish with more balls than you started.  If you choose, there is not a reason in the world to ever buy a golf ball.  Do the environment a service and pic a few out of the weeds.

What was hell was back in my youth when a good shot would ruin a great ball and a ball fetched from the water or cold was useless.  The modern ball will be around with the roaches.

[Joe Hancock]

There is no greater pleasure in golf than being able to hit your next shot.

[Mark_Fine]

Joe,
You can always hit your next shot (unless you mean with the same ball) 

You are not one of those card and pencil guys worried about your score are you 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Actually, I think the golf industry probably knows what golfers want pretty well.  Good maintenance, etc. but losing golf balls is something most want to avoid, especially since most are convinced they need to play $50 per dozen balls.  Pete Dye always related the story of talking to Ross at Pinehurst, and Ross telling him the secret to success was that it was hard to lose a golf ball at Pinehurst.

While water at the side of every hole (or most) is probably a turn off, I would bet that long rough that you can only chop out of for 50 yards or so is even more frustrating to most.  Its actually adjacent to the FW you miss, no 10 foot of rough buffer, etc., and makes for a long day.  Dropping in 1-1.5" rough from water is probably better than repeated mighty but unsuccessful blows from 3-4" rough.

[Joe Hancock]

We're turning the discussion into a lesser of evils-type discussion. "Water isn't so bad, when compared to (fill in the blank with really bad for golf thing here)".

[BCowan]

We're turning the discussion into a lesser of evils-type discussion. "Water isn't so bad, when compared to (fill in the blank with really bad for golf thing here)".

Joe, do you ever get tired of knocking them out of the park? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brent,

Your "Heroic" shot question fails to address a critical factor.

What are the consequences for failing to execute the "Heroic" shot.

Replaying the same shot, or moving up a bit and facing a similar shot isn't fun and can often ruin a round.

If you don't carry HHA, you go find your ball, play it and move on.

But, having to replay a shot, over and over again on different holes isn't what most golfers want out of a round

Yet they line up to pay hundreds of dollars for the privilege.

Seems strange to me but the water-choked courses do not seem to sit empty. So I guess they don't even suffer too much from you and me avoiding that type of place!

Brent, perhaps you hadn't noticed but we're getting another few inches of snow today and it's going down to 5 degrees tonight in the Metro NYC area. 
Given the choice, who wouldn't prefer to line up and pay hundreds of dollars ?
It sure beats shoveling snow in freezing conditions.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

You're missing the point.

No one is complaining about water features, the issue centers around the abundant use of water features, using PGA National as an example.

The issue also includes the use of water hazards as a default mechanism when the architect's creativity is challenged or MIA.

Let's face it, the very introduction of water makes it a powerful feature that has to be accounted for in the play of the hole.

What dead straight, flat hole isn't dramatically altered by the introduction of a flanking or intervening water hazard.

But, when that introduction becomes redundant, one has to ask whether the feature is an architectural crutch.

[John Kavanaugh]

Patrick,

That was true before this group started measuring architecture by number of balls and time on the clock. Hell, some guy was just hating on a water hazard because it cost him a two putt birdie. Seriously, I'm not making this stuff up.

[BCowan]

Patrick,

That was true before this group started measuring architecture by number of balls and time on the clock. Hell, some guy was just hating on a water hazard because it cost him a two putt birdie. Seriously, I'm not making this stuff up.

Jkava,

   I seldom hit it in water hazards.  The great courses you don't lose balls, without a need to be searching in the woods.  5 hours rounds are a problem, some of us have lives to live.  I'd rather have a fan by a green than a pond, but i know where you stand.  Your opponents should play you on courses with fans.  water is for the beach and swimming pools

  The irony is u just recently played #2, why are you supporting courses that don't have large water hazards in play? 

[John Kavanaugh]

I'd go to the middle of nowhere to play with the guys I met at #2, and often do.

[Mark_Fine]

So Pat (and others) what is your feeling about the water at Doral.  There is lots of sand but it is the water that is stealing the headlines.  Ask Rory

[Patrick_Mucci]

So Pat (and others) what is your feeling about the water at Doral.  There is lots of sand but it is the water that is stealing the headlines.  Ask Rory

Mark,

It's far more complicated than that.

One can't view the water and the bunkers as separate entities, in a vacuum, and independent of one another.

They function in unison, as co-conspirators to thwart the golfers attempts to make par or better.

And, you can't ignore the wind, a catalytic co-conspirator.

You really have to play the course to see and understand the visual, physical and tactical presentation.

This course was designed with a purpose, for a particular golfer, and it ain't us😀

[Jeff_Brauer]

Water gets no respect.  Aren't all those lakes just an attempt to "put water in its place?"

[Mark_Fine]

Pat,
Of course the hazards work in unison and I have played the course and it is far harder than PGA National in my opinion.  The players don't fear the sand (I didn't).  I feared the water and so do they.  It is a resort course but for one week a year!  I am guessing it is pretty busy during those other 50 or so weeks is it not so it must be designed for the rest of us

[Don Mahaffey]

Of course water is a crutch but not in the way most think. In most cases water is a secondary crush to the overwhelming cruth in golf architecture, earth moving.  Need dirt, dig a pond, try and make pond look good, design golf around pond.
It's the need for earth to support modern design philosophy that leads to all the water.  That and the need for irrigation storage. And like most things in golf, more is better so store enough water in the event the entire world goes on strike and you can't fill your pond for a month.

Other ways to generate earth, dig ditches. This is a two fold savings as the ditches can also serve as your storm drainage and they can be way cooler features to design golf around than ponds. Plus they can create some nice habitat for wild life.  Ditches, dry creeks, arroyos, barrancas...whatever they may be called, support good golf a lot better than unnatural looking ponds.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Of course the hazards work in unison and I have played the course and it is far harder than PGA National in my opinion. 

I think it's also windier.

But, not all courses have their bunkers and water hazards so arranged that they work in unison.

The first hole at Doral Blue is a good example.

The prevailing wind is probably from the SE, toward the water.
The green slopes toward the water.

The more the golfer tries to avoid the water on his approach, the more that bunker comes into play.

And, play from that bunker can mean a downhill lie in the bunker to a green that slopes away from you, toward the water, with the wind strong at your back.

And, should your miss be wide left of the bunker, you now have to pitch from rough, over that bunker, to a green that slopes away from you, toward the water, with the wind strong at your back.

Not that many holes present that kind of progressive defense, and it's all because of the location of that bunker in juxtapositon to the water.

The players don't fear the sand (I didn't). 

Baloney.
Let me bet you, not just on a medal play round, but, hole by hole, shot by shot and let me put the pin front center on # 1 and we'll see how your bravado turns to consternation.

Ditto almost every other hole on the golf course.

I'm a pretty decent bunker player and those bunkers caused me great concern, primarily due to the water.

I feared the water and so do they. 

No doubt.
The fear is universal, and increases exponentially as the velocity of the wind is dialed up.

It is a resort course but for one week a year! 

I am guessing it is pretty busy during those other 50 or so weeks is it not so it must be designed for the rest of us

To a degree, all golfers are masochists.
They seek to punish themselves by playing from tees far beyond their ability.

That's why they have the sign at BPB.

As to Doral, there are those golfers who, on the basis of the fee they paid, want to play "ALL" of the golf course.

Doral Blue is not meant to be played by hotel guests as an enjoyable leisurely round.
And, If I could, I'd open up a booth by the first tee and bet every golfer coming to the 1st tee that they will not shoot their handicap.

Then, they can give me odds on 3, 6, 9 and 12 over their handicap.

Within a year or two I might be as rich as Trump (Circa late 80's/early 90's)

[Mark_Fine]

Pat,
Look over your comments to me.  Almost every comment includes the word "water".  It is the water that dictates play on that golf course and adds to the hazard value of the sand bunkers.  If the water was not there, the challenge of the golf course and the sand bunkers changes dramatically!  That is a simple fact!  The water dictates everything!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

If it was just the water, the golfer would play away from it.

But, at Doral, that's made difficult by the placement of the bunkers.

Everyone understands the penalty for hitting the ball into the water, and avoiding the water is a primary concern, but, that's not the  object of the game, shooting the lowest possible score, hole by hole and cumulatively is the objective.

[Mark_Fine]

The bunkers just "compound" the difficulty of the water!  The water forces you to deal with the bunkers.  This is not that hard Pat   In engineering we call this root cause analysis