The Mysterious Doak 0

[Jason Way]

I travel to Scottsdale regularly, and this course was just recommended to me.  Thanks for the post Josh.  You saved me a trip.

I heart you and your high standards GCA!

[Matthew Petersen]

Huh. I'm pretty familiar with Quintero and also not a fan. It is a beautiful course, and generally well conditioned. It is also very hard.

That's about all I can say for it. Every hole is basically straight. 3 is a nice cape style tee shot, though over a contrived and unnatural pond. 17, a shortish par 4, is a slight dogleg. The par 5 8th is L-shaped but the dogleg, such as it is, does;'t play like a dogleg. You're still just hitting straight shots with no consideration of ages. Every other hole is straight. Hit it long and straight and you can shoot a decent number, the greens are neither memorable nor particularly difficult. Hit it wayward and it's going to be a very long day. It's just not interesting, even though it has that glossy surface that seems good.

I will say this for it. Josh oversells the cart rides. Quintero was built as a private club but they never got around to building a clubhouse, so you play out of a temporary closer to the main road. There's a very long cart ridge from that not-really-a-temporary clubhouse to the range and #1 tee, and then back after #18. Otherwise, it's not really any worse than a typical AZ high end residential course. You cross small roads a handful of times. The cart rides between holes are not 5 minutes. But, yeah, that's the best defense I'm willing to give the place.

[Matthew Petersen]

You could always give it a 1: A very basic golf course with clear architectral malpractice and/or poor maintenance. Avoid playing even if you are desperate for a game.

or a 2: A mediocre golf course with little or no architectural interest, but nothing really horrible. A friend summed one up "play it in a scramble, and drink a lot of beer."

This is Ballybunion Cashen for me.

That just doesn't seem to be what a zero is. As we saw in the first edition of the new CG, what Tom gave a zero, others gave it a 5. 1s and 2s are not big budget courses that are trying to be great. They're just plain folks. To get a zero you have to have moved enough earth and tried to be enough of something to actually be offensive, as opposed to just mundane. Quintero does feel sort of like it's in the potential conversation for this. A 5 doesn't seem out the equation. Neither does a 0. A 2 would not make sense for this course.

[Bill Brightly]

You could always give it a 1: A very basic golf course with clear architectral malpractice and/or poor maintenance. Avoid playing even if you are desperate for a game.

or a 2: A mediocre golf course with little or no architectural interest, but nothing really horrible. A friend summed one up "play it in a scramble, and drink a lot of beer."

This is Ballybunion Cashen for me.

That just doesn't seem to be what a zero is. As we saw in the first edition of the new CG, what Tom gave a zero, others gave it a 5. 1s and 2s are not big budget courses that are trying to be great. They're just plain folks. To get a zero you have to have moved enough earth and tried to be enough of something to actually be offensive, as opposed to just mundane. Quintero does feel sort of like it's in the potential conversation for this. A 5 doesn't seem out the equation. Neither does a 0. A 2 would not make sense for this course.

I said Cashen is a 2, a fun place to play a two-man scramble with a case of beer. But extremely diificult for an average golfer (forget about an average woman) especially if it is windy.

10 rounds between BB Old and Cashen, how do you split them?

[Brett Wiesley]

All on BB Old, but Cashen in afternoon when tired, need a cart and can't get back on the Old

[Bill Seitz]

Bland is one thing. Expensive is one thing. Bland and expensive, with long rides between holes and no variety to boot? That's a special class.

Hey, sounds like you're describing Turtle Point in Kiawah to a T. I guess the land isn't awful, since it's not all that different than other courses on the island (with an obvious exception), but the golf course is terrible.  It's also expensive. I don't believe you could pay me to play it again.

[Bill Brightly]

All on BB Old, but Cashen in afternoon when tired, need a cart and can't get back on the Old

Exactly. And if you are with a group of guys, why not load up the cart with beers and play that round in a two-man sramble format?

[John Percival]

Given it is frigid in most parts of the US right now, and the description of the course I'd guess a Vegas course, owned by a Casino, in...lets say Boulder City?

Brett, so you didn't like Cascata?

I only had the 'pleasure' of playing it once. That will do. Couldn't believe the hype, expense and the damn drive!
OK, OK, great entry gates and you'll never see a greater waterfall....inside a clubhouse!
But the course was boring and repetitive.
How much so?
Played the tips. Hit 12. 12! Seven irons on approaches. And a few 6's and 8's.
Long holes downhill and short holes uphill.
A real upchuck entry to challenge Shadow Creek.
Shoulda stayed at the CH, had some belts at the waterfall and just jacked at the range for a while.
But Hoover Dam is close and THAT is worth the drive.

[Josh Tarble]

Jason,
If you don't have it on your agenda play Talking Stick North.  It's talked about a lot on here but worth the praise IMO.  Defienately the best of the desert courses I've played and a lot of interesting holes.  I think that's what made the transition to Quintero so shocking, TSN is the exact opposite.

Matthew,
I probably exaggerated the drives a bit, but the one between hole 5 and 6 was pretty close to 5 minutes straight up a mountain.  All in all I bet cart time added 25+ minutes to the round, which because it was so hard it took forever anyway.  We played in just under 5 hours and only waited on a maybe 5 shots.

8 was the hole I mentioned that I thought was one of the worst holes I've ever played.  580+ yard par 5 and the drive is limited to 260 yards.  Then it's just try to hit it as far up the hill as you can.  So bad.

[Brett Wiesley]

John,

I think Cascata is a great place to have a very wonderful day. Lots of window dressing on top of the golf course which at the end of the day was not overly exciting.not sure if you take a look at an aerial photo of the place but almost all the holes run in to opposite directions. The waterfalls are a bit much, drives between holes are crazy, and overall fits the owners plan on catering to the big fish. 

[Scott Weersing]

I was going to guess Rees Jones as the designer of the Doak 0 and that was before I knew the name of the course.

Rees can't say no to a course that should not be built.

Rees sometimes get some of the course right.

I wonder how many of Rees' courses would be a Doak 0?  I have one, Hells Point in Virginia Beach, as it was built in a swamp with crowned fairways, and duplicate, template holes.

[Matthew Petersen]

Jason,
If you don't have it on your agenda play Talking Stick North.  It's talked about a lot on here but worth the praise IMO.  Defienately the best of the desert courses I've played and a lot of interesting holes.  I think that's what made the transition to Quintero so shocking, TSN is the exact opposite.

Matthew,
I probably exaggerated the drives a bit, but the one between hole 5 and 6 was pretty close to 5 minutes straight up a mountain.  All in all I bet cart time added 25+ minutes to the round, which because it was so hard it took forever anyway.  We played in just under 5 hours and only waited on a maybe 5 shots.

8 was the hole I mentioned that I thought was one of the worst holes I've ever played.  580+ yard par 5 and the drive is limited to 260 yards.  Then it's just try to hit it as far up the hill as you can.  So bad.

Yup, that's a pretty terrible hole.

Then you get to play 9, which is the same drop shot par 3 (same distance, same amount of drop) as #6, but this time there's a fake pond in front. Wheee!

[Marc Haring]

I'm trying to think of any Doak zero's that I have had the misfortune of playing and can think of only one (IMHO). It is in the county of Oxfordshire and carries the name of the county, (why is that so many courses that have the indefinite article as the prefix are so insulting). Coincidentally it has a 'topical to this post' course architect.

[Adam Clayman]

C'mon Josh, the first and 15th holes weren't bad.

[Josh Tarble]

C'mon Josh, the first and 15th holes weren't bad.

To be fair, 1 was better than most holes.  The fairway wasn't in a valley of mounds and actually had some bunkering you needed to pay attention to and 15 was definitely the best tee shot. 15 might be the only semi-unique hole on the entire course so it does have that going for it.

[Mike Hendren]

I believe I teed it up there with Adam a few years ago.

You might be interested to know that as recently as 2010 Quintero made Golfweek's top 100 modern list with an average score of 6.80.  I seem to recall that when Adam and I played there ten years ago it was as high as 65+/-.

I didn't care much for it, but to opine that it's a Doak Zero is quite a claim.  How about let's call is a Josh Zero?

I'm amused by folks on this site from time to time.  If Quintero's a Doak Zero, I've played a hundred courses that would be relegated to a negative number, and a big one at that.

BTW, the coolest thing about Quintero was a short course built on the large range by a golf architecture student.  I'm sure it's long gone.

Bogey

[Josh Tarble]

Bogey,

I think it's fair to call it a Josh 0 and not a Doak 0.  But what I was trying to get at, is what truly makes a 0.  I do think Quintero check's most of the boxes.
> Expensive 
> Long 
> Difficult
> Poor holes
> Maybe shouldn't have been built

I'm just not exactly sure how to truly judge a 0 though.   In the original Confidential Guide several courses were rated 0-5 or 0-6.  I could see Quintero being rated similarly. It's probably better than most 1s or 2s, but I know I didn't really enjoy the actual course while there and I definitely wouldn't go back.  I think that represents a 0 to me.

[Jim Nelson]

I'm throwing my hat into the ring with the nomination of Wolf Creek in Mesquite, NV. 
1.  Some people really like it.
2.  Terrible piece of land for a course
3.  Lots and lots of land used for cart paths.  They are all over the place and dominate the course
4.  Long rides between holes
5.  Some nice views
6.  Rankings have it up near the top of courses in NV.  Really?  Brings to mind the lack of really good courses in the state.  What 3 or 4?
7.  Played there once and not going back, so I can't remember the Par 5 or whether I used the same clubs on the Par 3's

[Tom Yost]

As I read through the first dozen posts, Quintero immediately came to mind.

No one has mentioned the perfectly flat characterless greens with nary a bump or wrinkle. 

It is highly regarded in the magazine lists.

I would give it a Doak 0 just to raise my middle finger to those that embrace that style of golf design.

Talking Stick North is remarkable not for what it is, but for what it isn't.   It isn't like any course built in Phoenix in the past 30 years and I mean that in a positive way.

[Doug Siebert]

In the original Confidential Guide several courses were rated 0-5 or 0-6.

I take a 0-5 or 0-6 to imply that external factors can influence the rating.  The course presents itself very differently on a calm vs windy day, or wet vs dry conditions, or from the tips vs regular tees.  Perhaps some crazy bad maintenance practices that could be fixed to greatly improve the course.

While you could make the argument "reasonable people may disagree and what some think is a 0 others will claim is a 6", Tom wasn't interested in what reasonable people might think in the original, he was giving his ratings alone.

[Tom_Doak]

In the original Confidential Guide several courses were rated 0-5 or 0-6.

I take a 0-5 or 0-6 to imply that external factors can influence the rating.  The course presents itself very differently on a calm vs windy day, or wet vs dry conditions, or from the tips vs regular tees.  Perhaps some crazy bad maintenance practices that could be fixed to greatly improve the course.

While you could make the argument "reasonable people may disagree and what some think is a 0 others will claim is a 6", Tom wasn't interested in what reasonable people might think in the original, he was giving his ratings alone.

Actually, it was the latter, not the former.  I did not want to hand out a parade of zeroes, but I wanted to say that some people would hate the course, and some wouldn't.  I might have done the same for the Castle Course at St. Andrews, but with three other guys rating every course now, I am more inclined to give my own opinion and not worry about who might disagree.

[Gary Sato]

Quinterro should not have been built in that remote spot and it's not very good but I wouldn't give it a 0. 

Cascata considering Rees unlimited budget is more deserving of a 0.  It has no redeeming qualities other than the clubhouse and great service.

[Josh Tarble]

Gary,
What would you consider Quintero's redeeming qualities?

[Carson Pilcher]

You could always give it a 1: A very basic golf course with clear architectral malpractice and/or poor maintenance. Avoid playing even if you are desperate for a game.

or a 2: A mediocre golf course with little or no architectural interest, but nothing really horrible. A friend summed one up "play it in a scramble, and drink a lot of beer."

I have played the Castle Course...and will never play it again.  While not a a "0" in my book, I would not go above 2 for sure.

To the OP's item, there is a course here in Atlanta that guys rave about.  I cannot, for the life of me, figure out what they see.  It is very well maintained, costs a lot to join, in an "exclusive neighborhood", etc. etc.  However, I think I would rather do anything else than play that course again.  Funny thing, I respect the designer but have no idea what he could have been thinking on multiple holes.

[Will Lozier]

I probably exaggerated the drives a bit, but the one between hole 5 and 6 was pretty close to 5 minutes straight up a mountain. 

Josh,

Looking at a google earth image, the 5 minute cart ride you claim to have taken would have been about a 135 yard journey - I guess my Atlanta "snow" day is my sad excuse for taking the 2 minutes to do this.  I can't believe, no matter how steep the climb or how slow the cart, that it took anywhere near this exaggerated amount of time.  Your real name isn't Bill O-Reilly is it?!