Florida land for building golf course

[Joe Hancock]

In the not so distance past, it was often said on here that Florida was not conducive to great golf. Flat land, too much water, bermudagrass, etc. We also have always recognized Seminole and Mountain Lake, and maybe a handful of others, as outliers to the above thoughts. Now, well, we seem to be focused on Florida and all the blessings and attributes it holds for the current wave, along with (speculated) upcoming projects.

What changed?

Joe

[Sam Morrow]

Nothing changed except the architects doing the courses.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Nothing changed except the architects doing the courses.

That, and the way they're being positioned in the market, ala Bandon. Probably very important as C&C's other attempt bore little fruit.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe,

What changed ?

The critics of Florida golf finally found religion, proving that a little education can go a long way.

In all seriousness, I think the target market changed.

Residential community golf ceased being the primary focus of golf course development.

At one point, people who visited Florida stayed at hotels/motels with golf courses, then a building boom occurred where people visiting Florida wanted homes/apartments in secure gated communities that would insure that their homes would be protected in their prolonged absence, hence the quality of the golf course wasn't the primary focus of that community, with water views being more important.

As those communities increased in numbers and became "built out" golfers sought golf only clubs where they wouldn't have to make tee times five days in advance, accept random lottery tee times and put up with 5+ hour rounds.

In addition, when the economy tanked in 2008, clubs became unaffordable to many, creating a need for daily fee or resort course.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Jim Nugent]

Finding a property like Streamsong changed things.  Does FL have any other viable sites with land forms that lend themselves to world-class golf courses? 

[cary lichtenstein]

Most of the state is swampy, so golf courses and terrain must be created. There are some "dune-sy" areas where the ocean once was, like Jupiter Hills that have deposits of millions of cubic feet of sand at substantial height variations.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Most of the state is swampy, so golf courses and terrain must be created.

Cary,

I think native Floridians might take exception to the above statement.

Most of the state isn't swampy.

Of about 35 million acres, only 11 million are deemed wetlands.

There are some "dune-sy" areas where the ocean once was, like Jupiter Hills that have deposits of millions of cubic feet of sand at substantial height variations.

[Jonathan Webb]

Anyone know anything about the Ocala Meadows Farm project built on an old Limerock quarry?  Google earth shows a finished product but I don't think it’s open.

Below link has some pictures from 2011:

http://www.ocala.com/article/20110902/ARTICLES/110909934

[John Kavanaugh]

I think we just got older. At 55 I find myself looking at Florida more than I did at 45.

[Adam Clayman]

Finding a property like Streamsong changed things.  Does FL have any other viable sites with land forms that lend themselves to world-class golf courses? 

I disagree SS changed things as far as the land is concerned.

Florida is replete with interesting ground. It may not be where the resorts want it, but it's there.

Mosaic building their own resort isn't a trend that will be followed by many. But it's what's changed as far as us talking more about Florida golf.

Has anybody even noticed that the El Diablo is closed down, shut, fini?  Jim Fazio did a wonderful job on decent ground and delivered an affordable course.

[Daniel Jones]

Anyone know anything about the Ocala Meadows Farm project built on an old Limerock quarry?  Google earth shows a finished product but I don't think it’s open.

Below link has some pictures from 2011:

http://www.ocala.com/article/20110902/ARTICLES/110909934

I call Ocala home, and this place has remained very much a mystery as I've watched it being being built over the last few years. It's actually called Adena G&CC, and the course is complete, though I've never heard of or seen anyone playing it. As I understand it, there area a few quarry holes, but the majority of the property was a rolling horse farm turned golf course. They actually have a fairly active FB page with some photos...

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Adena-Golf-and-Country-Club/298127843709801?fref=ts

[Peter Pallotta]

Pat's answer in post #3 seems to me a very good one. I'd just add "...and Bradley Klein", as a metaphor for a (specific kind of) coming of age for a (certain segment/demographic of) the mainstream golf media.

[Rees Milikin]

There is more than enough good land in Florida to build excellent golf courses, they just happen to be in areas where very little of the population resides. 

A very general way of looking for good golf land in Florida is: Look at google satellite images and notice all the land that has a tan/brown color, that is good land for golf based on the sandy soils and for the most part has some nice movement to the land.  Look at the land that is really dark green, that is for the most part land that isn't worth building on due to the swampy/wet nature of the land.  This isn't close to always being accurate, but is a great place to start when looking for good land to build a Florida golf course.

[Garland Bayley]

If I remember correctly it was Tom Dunne in the golf travel magazine that he worked for that wrote an article there pointing out that there are three sand ridges running somewhat north and south in Florida, and that there are good courses on those ridges.

Since then we have Coore and Crenshaw doing Sugarloaf?, and of course not Streamsong on the central sand ridge.

The land has always been there. The foresight to build on it somewhat lacking perhaps.

[Rees Milikin]

The amount of pre-1940 (almost all are NLE) courses built on the sand ridges in FL were in abundance and built by the likes of Ross, Raynor, Flynn, Stiles & Van Kleek, etc.  Too bad they are pretty much all gone and were replaced with architectural turds built on drained swamps...a damn shame.  Thankful to see Streamsong buck the trend in FL and hopefully inspire a renaissance of proper golf architecture in Florida on inspiring land.

[Rees Milikin]

This is always a good thread to reference regarding this subject: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,28247.0.html

[Bill_McBride]

Most of the state is swampy, so golf courses and terrain must be created.

Cary,

I think native Floridians might take exception to the above statement.

Most of the state isn't swampy.

Of about 35 million acres, only 11 million are deemed wetlands.

There are some "dune-sy" areas where the ocean once was, like Jupiter Hills that have deposits of millions of cubic feet of sand at substantial height variations.

You don't think a third of the state's total land being wetlands is a significant amount?   Sounds like a lot to me. 

[Joe Hancock]

Rees,

Thanks for that older thread. I had forgotten about it.

Also, thanks for the replies. I am thankful that, for many reasons listed by you guys, that great golf is once again being created in Florida.

Joe

[jeffwarne]

Most of the state is swampy, so golf courses and terrain must be created.

Cary,

I think native Floridians might take exception to the above statement.

Most of the state isn't swampy.

Of about 35 million acres, only 11 million are deemed wetlands.

There are some "dune-sy" areas where the ocean once was, like Jupiter Hills that have deposits of millions of cubic feet of sand at substantial height variations.

You don't think a third of the state's total land being wetlands is a significant amount?   Sounds like a lot to me. 

Well Bill,
Given that more than 2/3 of the world's surface is water, I'll take it!
Plenty of good land in Florida-it's a big state.
Plenty of classic courses that are ignored, even by this crew.
Sadly most courses were built in an ugly era for architecture and development using a very tired, predictable formula which was generally about golf as an amenity to RE as opposed to stand alone.
Every time I go through a predictably lanscaped gate I want to puke

Takes very deep (nongolf) pockets to do something like Streamsong.

[BCrosby]

Florida is a very big state. Take out its wetlands and it is still a very big state.

I have never understood why, in an area with rolling, sandy soil and lots of wind, more Florida courses aren't built to linksland models.  Is it a failure of the architectural imagination? Pressures from RE developers? Is there a rule in Florida that the golfer must see water on every hole?

I hope the Streamsong courses signal a change in tastes and make a different kind of golf course more acceptable in Florida. It is overdue.

Bob   

[Bill Brightly]

Another "change" may have been advancements in turfgrass. I am not a "turfhead," others can probably speak to this far better than I can, but I love the strain of Bermuda used at Streamsong. No, it is not fescue, but think it is great imitation. The ball certainly rolls out and that makes the courses so much more fun to play. The turf at SS seems to be different and far better than the other Florida courses that I sometimes play.

[jeffwarne]

Bob, Obviously you know more history than most here, but you have to remember that many/most people didn't have a passion for links golf once the agronomic wonders of lush parkland golf were discovered.(say 1930-1990)
And I include most UK and Irish golfers in this as well.
I remember my English assistant telling me how when they were kids they avoided hose "crappy scruffy links courses"
The US certainly doesn't have monopoly on planting trees or bad taste

I often wonder if the imaginative works of a Pete Dye sort've inspired others to see what his inspirations were from the UK.
Sadly, those who immediatly in the 80's copied his what they thought was his "style" focused on the worst features (island greens, railroad ties, water everywhere),and didn't copy the better more subtle features. The multiple future architects who worked for him evidently saw past the glitz and have been part of a new golden age, and that remains a huge part of Dye's well deserved legacy.

Most of the bad golf in Florida was built 1970-2000
There are some good classic Florida courses that are surviving by the skin of their teeth as daily fees while the average punter plays the better conditioned RE, Signature, waterfests

[BCrosby]

Jeff -

Take an older course like Mountain Lake. As far as I can tell it had almost no influence in Florida. Ditto JN's New Course. As hokey as it might be, I loved playing it. But it too had no influence.

Your comment that "many/most people didn't have a passion for links golf once the agronomic wonders of lush parkland golf were discovered.(say 1930-1990)" makes sense. Most Florida courses built after 1960 were modeled on courses in upstate New York. They were modeled on courses in clay soil, with little wind and lots of trees. None of which exist at most Florida locales.    

Hopefully the Streamsong courses will change things. If they do it will be after 60 or so years and billions of dollars spent on mediocre golf courses in a region that is endowed with ideal weather and terrain for a very different kind of golf course.

Bob

  

[David_Tepper]

Of course, with rising sea levels, Florida is likely to get swampier in the coming years.

[Charlie Gallagher]

   I certainly can't give a geologic assessment, but there are lots of places in the state that seem to offer a sandy base for golf. The Brooksville area has a sandy profile and there are other places in the state that also have good sand deposits, Johns Island West sits on such land. I played Timuquana near Jacksonville last year and that wonderful course sits on sand. So does the Deltona Club north of Orlando, and the sadly defunct Sugarloaf, west of Orlando near Lake Apopka. The Lake Wales area offers more sand and has some rolling, hilly, land.
  I think Patrick is on to something when he suggests the market for real estate drove the building of golf courses for a substantial period of time over the last 50 years or so in Fl. I can think off hand of dozens of courses I have played where the architect dug out hazard area and used that material for the course which was snaked through a housing development. These courses seem to have been constructed to fill a need in either a suburban or metropolitan area. They often have compromised architectural merit, but seem to have been designed to fill demand, as it existed at that time.
  Florida has lots of mediocre golf, but it also has more distinctive courses than one might initially think. Sand base should eventually result in the construction of more architecturally interesting  golf. Courses like Streamsong point the way.