Would Riviera be better with different grass?

[Phil Benedict]

It seems like such a ball-buster. Is it fun playing in this stuff all the time?   Does LA North have the same grass? 

[John Kavanaugh]

The grass at Riviera is perfect. The course is as much fun as any course in the world from the right set of tees. After a rain it just may be the best smelling course I have ever played.

[Pete Lavallee]

Phil,

Good question. Although Kikuyu is not the perfect grass to play golf on its better than most give it credit for. For instance last week they played on Kikuyu at Torrey; did anybody even mention that fact. Of course the big difference is Riviera has wall to wall Kikuyu and Torrey has a mix, green side and in the roughs. When Torrey kept carts on the path for 6 months before the Open those fairways were one of the best surfaces to hit irons shots off I have ever played. I have also played several CC in South Africa where they manage Kikuyu with great success. Strangely their walking culture is what makes it so playable; Royal Cape has fabulous conitions. Just a month after the Open Torrey's fairways were nowhere near their Tournament condition with carts tooling around on them. You would think a "tough grass" like that would stand up to carts well, but it doesn't. I guess if anybody should have to put up with it it's them as they brought it over for their Polo field and now almost every low budget course in So Cal has been infected by it to some degree; I should know I belong to 3 Mens Clubs that play off it!

[Kevin_D]

I played Riviera last year and was expecting to hate the grass based on all I had read. But then I got there...and it was fine. I even kind of liked it - found that the ball tended to sit up a little in the rough (where I often find myself). What's the big beef with kikuyu in general? The only negative thing I can remember is the greens maybe being a little soft.

Also, not to hijack, but what specifically do people hate so much about Fazio's bunkering at Riviera? I never played "before" but the bunkering seemed fine/appropriate. In fact the bunkering kind of reminded me of SFGC, which we know was done by someone who ranks quite highly around here!

Overall I thought Riviera was terrific. It's so great to see the course on TV now after playing it.

[Phil Benedict]

Pitches from the rough look incredibly hard.  Thank God Tiger isn't playing.  The other thing noticed from the telecast is that approaches that land short stick to the grass - there are no run up shots and seemingly no ground game

[Pete Lavallee]

Phil,

It makes great fairway surface, it's a very tough rough grass as the ball tends to sink if it's very long. You just can't bump a ball through Kikuyu near the green; well you can if you want to make double!

[John Kavanaugh]

Watch the 4th very closely this week. It plays as a redan for those who have the experience to know how. The ground game works at Riviera if you can hit the shots. Theses young guys don't get how to hit a reduced spin approach. That is not the fault of Riviera, it is the fault of training and other more simplistic courses. The hate of Riviera is the issues of the haters and not the course.

[DMoriarty]

Phil,
LACC is not Kikuyu.  It used to be common bermuda, I think.  It is still bermuda but don't know what kind.

Here is previous thread on Riviera's grass.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54870.msg1269694.html#msg1269694

[John Kavanaugh]

Moriarty lives in L.A. and has never played Riviera. Proof that their is a God.

[Josh Stevens]

What is Riv built on, sand or clay?

Im not a member of the kyk fan club, but on hard clay it works well, as the extra sponginess does make such course more playable, and as long as its maintained well and kept short its fine.  And of course it does make a course play longer

Its also very tough and drought tolerant so a good grass in tough areas as you cant kill it with a brick.

On sand base however, I find it a waste, as the extra buffer to an extent removes the ability to squeeze the ball against the turf.  But again its easy to grow and cheaper to maintain, and so it the grass of choice on munis and lower end private tracks

[Terry Lavin]

Maybe with better bunkers. The grass is a great equalizer.

[Tim Leahy]

Kikuyu is really hard to chip on. Rancho Park used to be all Kik or dirt.  Makes the courses unique and a challenge similar to putting on bent grass greens I imagine.

[Pat Burke]

Watch the 4th very closely this week. It plays as a redan for those who have the experience to know how. The ground game works at Riviera if you can hit the shots. Theses young guys don't get how to hit a reduced spin approach. That is not the fault of Riviera, it is the fault of training and other more simplistic courses. The hate of Riviera is the issues of the haters and not the course.

John, I played numerous LA Opens (90's), and until I played it last year the week after the tournament, balls would not
work their way from short of the green on 4, in to the green.  It was always just to "sticky".
And I was a pretty good "slinger" of the ball back then.  Still had to take it in high to the right half of the green most rounds.

[BJones]

Kikuyu does limit the ground game, especially at courses with push up greens.  With the proper care the grass can be quite playable.  Here is a great article that is worth reading.

http://grounds-mag.com/mag/grounds_maintenance_livingand_succeedingwith_kikuyugrass/

[Jeff Fortson]

It's my favorite grass to play off in the fairway (when mow heights are tight) and one of the hardest out of the rough.  Riviera measures a person's ball striking higher than almost any course in the world.

Jeff

[Jim Nugent]

It's my favorite grass to play off in the fairway (when mow heights are tight) and one of the hardest out of the rough.  Riviera measures a person's ball striking higher than almost any course in the world.

Jeff

Jeff, that interests me because often the winner at Riviera hits 50% of all fairways or less.  Any thoughts on that? 

[Bill_McBride]

Kikuyu drives me bonkers.  It's fine in the fairway, the ball sits up nicely.  It's around the greens that's the problem as some have noted above. Pat Burke knows what he's talking about.  I am a terrible ball striker and the short game has always been important as I wind up with a lot of short pitches.   With kikuyu and firm greens it's a crap shoot.  If you try to land a little short and trickle on, the ball hangs up like Velcro.  If you pitch it on, the ball runs 30' past.  It's a lose-lose grass. 

[Bob_Huntley]

I think I may be the only one time member of Riviera that is a contributor here.

I can think of no course that requires a more complete game. The grass did make the difference.


Regular games at Riviera and a round every other week at LACC was paradise.


Bob

[Phil Benedict]

Firm greens and Kikuyu don't make a very good combination since you can't land short  and run the ball up to the green.

[Jeff Fortson]

It's my favorite grass to play off in the fairway (when mow heights are tight) and one of the hardest out of the rough.  Riviera measures a person's ball striking higher than almost any course in the world.

Jeff

Jeff, that interests me because often the winner at Riviera hits 50% of all fairways or less.  Any thoughts on that? 

I can't speak of the rough currently, but the two years I was there for the event the rough was not deep, at least nothing like the depth in summer.  Take a look at the US Senior Open stats from the 90's.  Guys were losing balls in the practice round 3 feet from the green (not that I think that is a good quality). There isn't a more difficult grass I have played from when the rough is up.  It's like hitting out of a hybrid bermuda/iceplant mix.   At least in my experience it is.  The main detraction from kikuyu is that around the greens you have to fly pitch and chip shots onto the green.  If you try to land something in the fringe or short of the putting surface, the grass grabs the ball like velcro.  So, in that sense it makes the short game more one-dimensional than other types of grass.

Jeff

[RJ_Daley]

From the linked article on the science/agronomy aspect only one fact is relevant.  The "Kik" is here to stay and nothing will eradicate it.  Thus, the players on tour have to learn to love it and cope with its quirkiness.   The only hope is that timely vertical mowing and thatch control in the run up aprons can minimize the velcro nature of the turf.  The surrounds cut seems critical and for something like the Northern Trust annual tournament, may need special prep that may restrict members play for some weeks going into the event. 

The question of a better and different turf for "The Riv" is not a valid consideration.