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John Kavanaugh

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Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« on: February 18, 2015, 09:17:48 PM »
Did it coincide with any other cultural revolutions?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2015, 09:21:13 PM »
Who said it died?  There are many stories of busy architects telling draftsman to "Give me the old number 64 green here, but flip it, make it 10% larger, and change the angle a few degrees"

Its just that the more naturalistic style (over Raynor, who I presume you are talking about) makes is a bit less obvious.....

If anything, it may be easier in CAD, and more necessary as things like ADA come into play. >:(
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2015, 10:39:37 PM »
Jeff,

The 90's called, they want your post back. Maybe templates died along with "busy architects".

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2015, 11:12:56 PM »
Not sure it died, it's just that the "templates" morphed. The RTJ style of raised greens with bunkers at 4 and 8 sure seems like a template. And that was commonly emulated by many other architects of the time.

Sean_A

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Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2015, 03:38:59 AM »
JakaB

I assume you are referencing the MacRayBanks version of templates...in which case...these dudes died and by tha time the Golden Age of design was coming to a close and Hitler started to pogo dance on Europe....building courses of any description seemed to lose its importance. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 03:44:21 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2015, 07:48:37 AM »
JK,

Well, you have a point, but similar conditions may exist today, primarily due to lower fees.  I believe some architects are charging so low that they may use a leftover design to save some time. Now, my experience is that it sometimes takes more work to fit a pre existing design into a new site that it does to start from scratch.  By the time you shrink/expand/extend, flatten or steepen, move greenside bunkers to fit trees, etc., it becomes a completely new design anyway.

Also, I wonder if there is an exaggeration of the concept that "the clients want my best stuff" now that we are each building a few instead of dozens of greens per year?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2015, 08:19:27 PM »
What are these modern "templates"?

The Nicklaus 12th?

The Dye Chiquita?

The Fazio Sans Bunker?


Mark_Fine

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Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2015, 10:21:06 PM »
John,
Don't know how many different golf courses you get to see but if you play enough, you will see it clearly HAS NOT DIED!
Mark

Gib_Papazian

Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2015, 09:35:59 AM »
Barny,

Putting aside your purposely pompous provocations - clearly intended to elicit a response from architects like Jeff so you can insult them - no such thing has happened. Every golf course of merit built in this country is full of "template" holes, you're just not thoughtful enough to identify them - for the same reason unsophisticated people have a difficult time grasping the underlying structure of great art. Courses all over America have so-called classic ideas massaged into their designs, they just don't normally include a notation on the scorecard reading "Redan."

Surely, on some simplistic, surface level you are capable of viscerally understanding this hole or that hole is well done, but because you've never really sat down and studied classical strategic arrangements, it is a bit like an ape standing cowed and confused before the monolith; there is something important there, but you haven't a clue what it is - and since an epiphany has clearly not occurred after 15 years and a million snarky posts, it is safe to assume that train left Southampton long ago.

Certainly, there will always be great courses built with unconventional pacing (Pac Dunes), but strip away the grass and closely examine the GEOMETRY of the holes and you'll invariably discover an underpinning of tried and true ideas - just well hidden hidden from the vacant gaze of less rigorous intellects. Yes, a Des Muirhead will pop up every generation or so to challenge the structure of traditional design, but if the test of time is your measuring stick, beyond a singular curiosity, golf does not need another Stone Harbor any more than film needs a nouveau Hans Richter inflicting dadaist dog shit on cinema audiences.

The secret word for today is "structure" - it is the glue that holds together great literature, theater, art and yes, architecture. One of my favorite quotes is from Jean-Luc Godard, who noted "My films all have a beginning, a middle and and end, just not necessarily in that order." In other words, it is a perfectly valid choice to start or end a golf course with a par-3, but not to plant a cypress tree in front of the tee box. Structure can be elastic, but it is not silly putty.

Beyond economic boom and bust cycles, I'm not sure there is any link between "cultural" revolutions and golf design. Construction machinery has certainly improved, but the Luddite in me wonders why golf courses from the drag pan era seem to have more personality and texture than some of the monstrosities built before the minimalist movement in the 90's.

Incidentally, Indiana University called, they want your sheepskin back.          

    
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 10:00:51 AM by Gib Papazian »

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2015, 11:27:57 AM »
Gib,

I wish I could send my sheepskin back to Indiana University but they sent my application back sometime during that memorable winter of 78.  I personally believe that template architecture died with monochromatic cars and tract homes.  But that is just the stupid in me.

What disturbs me most about what I am learning is that I have always kept silent as some intellectual calls every par three with a side sloping green a redan, or worse, a nadar because I thought it would be rude to point out their ignorance during their afterglow.  As I wish I would do much more often keeping my mouth shut protected me from exposing my own ignorance because as you say every damn hole ever built is a redan if you just know where to look.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2015, 11:44:19 AM »
Gib:

There is a huge difference between using familiar concepts and building templates. 

Is every bunker in the middle of a fairway a Principal's Nose?  Is every tilted green [or angled green] a Redan?  They may be cousins in some way, but there's a huge difference between that and building a template.

I think template design has gone into hiding in recent years because it's not so marketable.  Every course of the last 20 years has tried to emphasize how SPECIAL it is.  Talking about how they copied this or that idea does not make that case well.

Honestly, I am not sure the idea has EVER marketed that well.  Macdonald got a bunch of flak for it from some quarters when he was planning The National, and he didn't talk about it much after that.  Sure, Raynor used the templates all his career, but he wasn't marketing any of his courses nationally ... he was just selling his templates to the cousins and in-laws of his other clients.  I guess that same business model existed for Lyle Anderson and Discovery Land Co. and maybe Toll Brothers, but there's not much of it now.

Mark_Fine

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Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2015, 12:07:20 PM »
This all depends on how you define a template hole/model.  How many of Raynor's Redan holes look the same?  How of them look like #15 at North Berwick?  How many of his Cape holes look the same?  I could go on. 

All architects repeat/reuse some of their golf holes (they just dress them up differently but they play very much the same).  If that is not what we are calling a "template" then I am not exactly sure what we are discussing? 

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2015, 12:07:54 PM »
Tom - as you say, Raynor wasn't "selling" his stylized services to the greater marketplace. But, so many of his courses are revered today and receive amazing ratings that one would wonder why a modern Raynor didn't develop, selling the concept of "proven" designs. If that had happened many of the crap courses out there that are mostly boring might today be interesting "Raynor Lites." I understand an architect's need to be creative, but what's wrong with providing a local group of golfers a set of holes that are based on time tested concepts which assure an interesting experience? Personally, I'd much rather play a Yeamans Hall knock-off than most of the uninspired tracts near where I live.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 12:22:33 PM by Michael Whitaker »
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Mark_Fine

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Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2015, 12:27:52 PM »
Michael,
Good point and if we are talking about "18 hole" template courses which apparently we are, then yes the concept as Raynor employed it, has probably passed on (despite the fact that many architects have their own template golf holes) .  However, I have to say that I have played dozens of Raynor golf courses and not once have I ever felt I was playing the same course despite all his template holes.  The combination of routing, sequence, orientation, cosmetics,...makes every course he did unique.  These were not cookie cutter designs.  That was part of his brilliance.
Mark

Dan Moore

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Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2015, 12:30:47 PM »
I was going through the USGA Green Section Magazines from the 1920's yesterday.  There were several comments on architecture that criticized the template approach to holes.  I thought this one was pretty fascinating.  

"There is merit in the idea that holes of proven reputation ought to be copied-especially if these replicas apply as to principles but not as to details. If however the idea is embalmed in a set of mechanical models, then there can obviously be no progress as long as these are followed, neither for the architect himself nor for his art. To be blunt, such an architect is sacrificing his art to present commercial gain."

The article did not have a byline.  Max Behr had several articles in the magazine during the 20's.  Could he have been the author?

I always thought Raynor was limited to using templates because he wasn't a golfer and wouldn't know how to design an original hole. Are there many examples of him deviating from the templates?  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Tom_Doak

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Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2015, 12:51:17 PM »
Tom - as you say, Raynor wasn't "selling" his stylized services to the greater marketplace. But, so many of his courses are revered today and receive amazing ratings that one would wonder why a modern Raynor didn't develop, selling the concept of "proven" designs. If that had happened many of the crap courses out there that are mostly boring might today be interesting "Raynor Lites." I understand an architect's need to be creative, but what's wrong with providing a local group of golfers a set of holes that are based on time tested concepts which assure an interesting experience? Personally, I'd much rather play a Yeamans Hall knock-off than most of the uninspired tracts near where I live.

Michael:

There are many architects selling the concept of their "proven" designs.  I would say the majority of architects stay within their comfort zone of whatever style brought them to prominence.  It is much easier to tell a new client "I will build you a course just like X that you liked so much," than to say, "I am going to create something entirely new here but I can't really tell you what it will look like just yet," so most Signature designers have done the former.

However when they talk to the golf press they frame it entirely differently, because they think everyone wants to hear how creative they are.  Seth Raynor was a rare case:  he was an engineer turned architect, and I doubt he cared whether anybody thought he was creative, because he was so busy in the midst of the boom.

I will disagree with your last point.  I do not want to visit hundreds more "Raynor lite" designs.  The fact that some other architects in your area did not do very good work is more an indictment of the people who hired them; they might not have hired Mr. Raynor Lite even if given the option.

SL_Solow

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Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2015, 01:03:45 PM »
Dan;  good comment.  Does Raynor's Prize Dogleg qualify?

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2015, 01:27:44 PM »
I will disagree with your last point.  I do not want to visit hundreds more "Raynor lite" designs.  The fact that some other architects in your area did not do very good work is more an indictment of the people who hired them; they might not have hired Mr. Raynor Lite even if given the option.

Tom - Most golfers play a very limited number of courses over their lifetime. Not many travel the country (or the world) to visit courses and compare designs. Like you, I would not like to play "hundreds" of Raynor-Lite courses, but having an interesting one close to my home to replace one of the mediocre courses would be a very positive thing, I believe.

Why are Raynor courses so revered? If someone could tap into the pleasure that Raynor's courses give the general golfing public wouldn't that be a good thing... at least for the golfer? I understand that some architects would see that as sacrificing creativity, but what is the more important service an architect can provide... creativity or an enjoyable design? Some architects, like you, can fully express their creativity and build an enjoyably playable course at the same time. Most can't... it's a sliding scale. The world needs (or at least needed) functional architects who could design good everyday courses for the general golfing public. What would be wrong with having well done Raynor-esque courses scattered throughout hundreds of America's markets? Every Raynor course I have ever seen (or read about, for that matter) is well thought of and thoroughly enjoyed by its constituency. That can't be a bad thing.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

C. Sturges

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Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2015, 01:30:08 PM »
I think we need to dig deeper.  Yes, Raynor used template holes regularly in his designs, but he was a great golf course router.  In my mind that is a huge difference.  Just putting templates holes here and there, even if they are good does not make a good to great course.  I have been lucky to play a few of his courses and I have not felt it was the same course/design at a new location.  There are some modern designers that I have played many of there courses and this is how I felt.  I could not tell that I was in a different state or climate zone because they moved so much land and made a course very similar to there other courses.  Yes, I would say these guys are using templates of there own that they like and put in there designs.  
It is easy with modern earth moving equipment to make bland courses with little interest from one design to another.  Or they consistently leave you wanting more.  To me this is most of Art Hills courses, many have good routings, but you get to the green complexes and they are just blah.  I leave these courses shaking my head, because it is so close to being something good, but instead it is a course that gives you very little reason to want to go back and play.  Which to me is a shame.
chris

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2015, 01:32:05 PM »
Raynor courses are revered because they have weathy memberships.  Just like great homes, art and cars.

C. Sturges

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Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2015, 01:40:33 PM »
John,
Would you agree or disagree that they are fun courses to play?
chris

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2015, 01:54:01 PM »
John,
Would you agree or disagree that they are fun courses to play?
chris

Of course I do partly because I am an engineer myself.  I am also not surprised that an engineer with a set of templates in his hand would route a course in an efficient manner.  Hell, my first year out of college I was designing bridges out of a book of templates.  This plus that go to page 6 and pick beam B.  Scary isn't it?  Routing a bridge isn't much different than routing a golf course.


C. Sturges

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Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2015, 01:58:16 PM »
John,
I for one look forward to you building a golf course, with or with out templates!  I bet it would be a blast to play!
chris

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2015, 02:01:43 PM »
John,
I for one look forward to you building a golf course, with or with out templates!  I bet it would be a blast to play!
chris

Thank you but that is what my brother does for a living.  While I don't talk about his work often I have never seen an architect with a better sense of engineering.

Gib_Papazian

Re: Why did the template model of building golf courses die?
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2015, 02:06:28 PM »
Tom,

You are correct, there is an enormous difference between a Stevinson Ranch, where John made it flat out clear to me he was trying to do an ode to Raynor/Macdonald and courses that take the bare bones underlying intellectual structure of a given strategic arrangement as a foundation for a given expression.

There is plenty of room in the middle of course - starting with Old Macdonald. Is that a template Biarritz you and Urbina conjured up? Maybe sorta . . . . . .  except one well traveled guy commented the irregular nature of the swale looked more like #16 at North Berwick than a Biarritz. The elements are all there - particularly from the strategic standpoint. Unless your ball has a parachute on it, the only way to get the ball on the back section is knock down a 4-iron and squeeze your butt cheeks while it careens along the ground.  

Is #11 at Pac Dunes just a teensy bit like #7 at Pebble or the Postage Stamp? I've played it more than 10 times and it sure feels like at least a 2nd cousin. Is #5 at Pac Dunes really a Reverse-Redan? Isn't #17 a modified Redan hole? Does not #13 at Bandon have the essence of a Channel Hole?

The point is that nothing - and I mean nothing - exists or is created in a vacuum. Unless you're intentionally going off the reservation, there are a limited number of plot structures to work with, just as there are a limited number of chords and combinations to work with on the guitar. You can perfect the blues, you just can't reinvent it - because the foundation already exists.

I just reread Barny's original post and because he did not give any specifics or assert anything beyond a vague statement, so this thread might be more of his malicious phishing.        
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 02:21:30 PM by Gib Papazian »

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