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Mike_Young

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Hole sequence
« on: February 18, 2015, 11:29:58 AM »
I'm reading all of these various topics regarding Lido, best modern greens designers, replicas and I note that Don M is mentioning hole sequence in replicas.  I'm not sure that hole sequence might not be the most important single part of the great courses.  Great greens or great holes in a different order may be nothing more than a great green or a great hole.  Different guys seem to sometimes have patterns for their hole sequencing that they use from course to course in order to force a player to hit specific shots at specific times in a round.  For instance, IMHO PD seems to try and create such with his ending hole sequence often.  Take Secession 16, 17 and 18 and compare to TPC Sawgrass 16, 17 18. 
IMHO greens designs, replicas and all of that stuff doesn't work if the sequence isn't there.



"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hole sequence
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2015, 12:36:15 PM »
I agree it is an important component.  I like a stretch of birdie opportunities somewhere in the round both for tournament and recreational play.  Pebble Beach, Augusta National and the Old Course all feature significant stetches where a player on his game can make up a ton of ground.

Here is the 1982 US Open on Youtube.  I remembered the Watson/Nicklaus part of course but there were a bunch of other players who jumped near the lead for periods of time throughout the round.  It did not turn into any sort of two person fight until the last few holes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17_cug0oCSg

I thnk the same type of sequencing works well for recreational play as well. There is a unique pressure associated with feeling like you should make up ground on a hole that can produce a variety of outcomes.  There is another type of pressure when you are going well but suddenly face a stretch of tough holes that will expose weakness. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Hole sequence
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2015, 04:48:11 PM »

I agree it is an important component.  I like a stretch of birdie opportunities somewhere in the round both for tournament and recreational play.  Pebble Beach, Augusta National and the Old Course all feature significant stetches where a player on his game can make up a ton of ground.
You're forgetting that the nines at ANGC were switched and that TOC used to be played in reverse.


Here is the 1982 US Open on Youtube.  I remembered the Watson/Nicklaus part of course but there were a bunch of other players who jumped near the lead for periods of time throughout the round.  It did not turn into any sort of two person fight until the last few holes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17_cug0oCSg

I thnk the same type of sequencing works well for recreational play as well. There is a unique pressure associated with feeling like you should make up ground on a hole that can produce a variety of outcomes.  There is another type of pressure when you are going well but suddenly face a stretch of tough holes that will expose weakness. 

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hole sequence
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2015, 05:41:05 PM »
If by hole sequencing, you speak of a stretch of maybe 3 holes that are likely pars, and realistic birdie chances in a row, for an average player, or easy pars and very gettable birdies and a possible rare eagle vs a string of demanding pars, very tough birdies, likely bogey or worse, then I agree that an interesting course should have that stretch somewhere around the middle of each nine hole loop.   

But, if you are talking more on sequence of par 3, par 4, par 5 in whatever order, repeating in same order from one course design to the other of said archie, it is a non-starter for my taste.  It may lend to the idea of that archie being formulaic, or rigid in design thinking.  In that regard, I think only the character of the land the course is designed upon should dictate the par sequence, within boundaries of quirk but not absurd like 3 or more of same par in a row. Two par 3s, or par 5s along with longer string of par 4s are generally acceptable, IMHO. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hole sequence
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2015, 06:32:08 PM »
Patrick Mucci

I think the 'sequencing' of holes at The Old Course clockwise and anti-clockwise is very similar.  Same pars, same length holes, on all but 4 holes the same greens are used (but generally different hole locations) but with different tees and (generally) different fairways being used.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hole sequence
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2015, 06:41:09 PM »
RJ,
I'm not really speaking of either.  I'm trying to say that a good course can be good with good greens and individual holes but the great ones mess with the good players and try create various issues for them at different points in the round.  Just using Pete Dye holes at TPC and Secession as an example...let's say that the 16th is a reachable 5 par hole that may ask for a cut driver after a guy has been drawing the ball most of the day.  Once in position the reachable hole may not be worth the risk at that stage in the round where it would have been attempted earlier.  Then one goes to a short par three that has no way out but it is fair to both long and short hitters and it it were somewhere else in the round it would not have near the pressure it does at 17.  Then you go to an 18th that would be the ideal draw bu tif there is a bailout right the approach takes on an entirely new meaning....IMHO the architect has tried to use what he can to create situations at various places in the round and the good ones can mess with a good player's head and the guy doesn't even know it. ( he also did not take the short hitter out of the competition over the last few holes)  JMO but I think all the great courses have it.    
Just asking a question but take for example #7 at Pebble....would it be a better hole as #17?  I say yes just because it is a touch shot and if it were to present itself at a time in the round when the nerves are really firing it would be a totally different shot....enough ranting...JMO....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jonathan Mallard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hole sequence
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2015, 07:40:12 PM »
Here's a thread Tom Doak started on the subject referencing Augusta National.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47931.msg1075894.html#msg1075894

Certainly, it was not Jones and MacKenzie's original design of Augusta National which makes The Masters so exciting.  After all, they got the nines backwards.  But Jones eventually figured it out.

Every time there is a great tournament such as this year's, we hear how it's the greatest Masters ever, and we don't really think much about why it seemed that way.  It seems that way because of the pacing of the course.  Here's how it works:

Holes 7, 8 and 9 offer the potential for birdie or even eagle, as Tiger Woods demonstrated yesterday.  These are the holes which allow contenders to jump up the leader board while the leaders are playing some of the most difficult holes on the course [4, 5 and 6].

Holes 10, 11 and 12 are the toughest stretch of holes at Augusta.  Here, the guys who are trying to mount a challenge may struggle, especially in comparison to leaders who are playing 7, 8 and 9.  But here again, the leaders have to navigate this stretch of holes while the contenders are eliciting roars up ahead on holes 13-16, and it's tough to keep your focus under those circumstances, as Rory McIlroy proved again this year.

Holes 13, 14 and 15 (and 16 when the flag is back left in the now-traditional Sunday spot) are, like 7 through 9, holes where birdie and eagle are again a factor, and contenders playing ahead can put pressure on the leaders, which makes the leader board look like it's changing more than it really is.  [In fact, if you just look at the big Masters scoreboard on a hole-by-hole basis and compare where every player was at the same point in their rounds, you'll usually see that the lead was not changing nearly as much as it seemed to be.  I am going to go look at this right now and report back.]

Holes 17 and 18 are tough finishing holes where someone can make a birdie, but a player trying to hold on can easily make a bogey, too.  That's what you need from finishing holes.  If they are all just par-or-bogey holes, the finishes will be much less exciting, and the course will get a reputation for producing leaders who choke down the stretch.

None of that would really matter for anything but tournament play, but in a tournament, it is by far the most exciting recipe for drama.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hole sequence
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2015, 08:49:06 PM »
 ??? 8) 8)


We once had a great thread on flow, of which Mike speaks , which is so important in greatness.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hole sequence
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2015, 08:11:52 AM »
Mike,

I agree, even if I wonder if Jones and Mac could know which contenders would be on the birdie holes while leaders were on tough ones. It would seem somewhat random, but at least it allows that possibility at the Masters.

For "regular design" gca's have also considered it, and many here can find flaws with it.

RBHarris had his "Perfect Par Rotation" of 4-5-4-3-4-5-4-3-4.  He even went further to have the first 3 and 5 be the long ones, and the second to be the short ones.  Makes sense not to have a reachable par 5 on 2/11, but the par 3 could easily be reversed.  One  problem I always found on those type courses is that while par varies, the approach shot distances could often be similar.  At hole 6--7-8 you might have a wedge approach to a par 5, a short iron approach to the par 3, and since 7 was usually a short 4, a wedge there too. (He tended to sequence his par 4 holes as medium-long-medium long-short-very long)

Stanley Thompson had his famous chart showing the variation in approach shot yardages.  In the Cornish/Graves book, they also had a chart showing angles of the green (left/right/straight/across) to match shot variations with length.

Fazio tackles it a bit in his book, mentioning not having a series of bunkers either right or left, but balancing them for variety.  I recall Lanny Wadkins working with him at TPC Myrtle Beach and us having a discussion on whether that kind of balance made for a better course than simply picking the natural locations for hazards and just building the best 18 holes possible.  (I took it Lanny didn't really have much to do with the routing, just features)

My sense is, most architects can only think of so many things at one time.  They route first, casually looking at the best features, but it ends up they look at some, but not all holes for best feature designs.  Certainly, routing affects flow as much as hazard placement.  Then, they sort of try to come up with some variation of good holes that flow differently. 

An example may be the JN "feel good par 3" template, which gives the impression that he puts it in when he thinks there are too many hard holes in a row.  I guess Jack has come a long way. I get the impression that in days past, purposely building a non tournament quality hole might have killed him!

But, Lanny's simple question usually persists - is a course better with all 18 holes being as strong as they can be, or one where a few are easier really a better overall experience?  Ideally, you have both of course, but it can't always come out that way in design.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Hole sequence
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2015, 08:22:13 AM »
Mike,

I agree, even if I wonder if Jones and Mac could know which contenders would be on the birdie holes while leaders were on tough ones. It would seem somewhat random, but at least it allows that possibility at the Masters.


Jeff:

I gave Mr. Jones too much credit in that earlier post for "figuring it out".  In fact, it was probably just an accident that the course worked out as it did.  In fact, the leaders didn't even go out last until the late 1950's, and I don't know when the galleries for The Masters started getting big and loud but it wasn't in 1935.

Nevertheless, I would guess that hearing about what was happening on holes 13-15 has affected how players attacked holes 11-12 for many, many years.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hole sequence
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2015, 08:36:29 AM »
TD, probably right on all counts.  Its funny how a crowd can tell the difference in cheers for a birdie, long putt, closely missed putt, hole in one.  I am sure golfers hear it too, with some having "rabbit ears."

I guess if they were really thinking about it, holes 7-9 would be adjacent to 12-16 to amplify the noise.......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hole sequence
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2015, 08:41:37 AM »
I do not care whether or not the architects at St. Andrews, Pebble Beach or Augusta National intended the sequence that exists today.  The impact of this type of arrangement is a nice feature and improves a course. 

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hole sequence
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2015, 08:54:43 AM »
Good hole sequences are always a nice feature. But they are good only if you have good holes to work with. 

Bob


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hole sequence
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2015, 09:18:27 AM »
Good hole sequences are always a nice feature. But they are good only if you have good holes to work with. 

Bob



now now now....That's why I specified that it was a feature of all the GREAT courses.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hole sequence
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2015, 06:12:51 PM »
RJ,
I'm not really speaking of either.  I'm trying to say that a good course can be good with good greens and individual holes but the great ones mess with the good players and try create various issues for them at different points in the round.  Just using Pete Dye holes at TPC and Secession as an example...let's say that the 16th is a reachable 5 par hole that may ask for a cut driver after a guy has been drawing the ball most of the day.  Once in position the reachable hole may not be worth the risk at that stage in the round where it would have been attempted earlier.  Then one goes to a short par three that has no way out but it is fair to both long and short hitters and it it were somewhere else in the round it would not have near the pressure it does at 17.  Then you go to an 18th that would be the ideal draw bu tif there is a bailout right the approach takes on an entirely new meaning....IMHO the architect has tried to use what he can to create situations at various places in the round and the good ones can mess with a good player's head and the guy doesn't even know it. ( he also did not take the short hitter out of the competition over the last few holes)  JMO but I think all the great courses have it.    
Just asking a question but take for example #7 at Pebble....would it be a better hole as #17?  I say yes just because it is a touch shot and if it were to present itself at a time in the round when the nerves are really firing it would be a totally different shot....enough ranting...JMO....

That's a heck of a quote Mike. I wasn't even aware that there was this much detail to contingencies in design considerations.