Greens: Streamsong Blue v. Old Corkscrew

[Jason Topp]

The Old Corkscrew thread reminded me of an issue I have a difficult time deciphering.

Old Corkscrew and Streamsong Blue both have very difficult, complex and undulating greens.  Yet - the greens at Streamsong Blue are praised more often than not and the greens at Old Corkscrew are harshly critisized.

I am not certain I disagree with those sentiments but I am hard pressed to articulate why they shoud be viewed so differently. 

[Tom_Doak]

I haven't seen Old Corkscrew.

I would ask about the context of the greens.  Streamsong's greens are wild, but they compensate for very wide fairways and approaches on an open site.  If you can't hit the green, you can play to a spot that makes your third shot easier; but if you get in the wrong position, that third shot is quite difficult.  There are also several short and/or half-par holes that make a severe green more acceptable.

Is any of that true of Old Corkscrew?  Or is it 7500 yards?

[Jason Topp]

I haven't seen Old Corkscrew.

I would ask about the context of the greens.  Streamsong's greens are wild, but they compensate for very wide fairways and approaches on an open site.  If you can't hit the green, you can play to a spot that makes your third shot easier; but if you get in the wrong position, that third shot is quite difficult.  There are also several short and/or half-par holes that make a severe green more acceptable.

Is any of that true of Old Corkscrew?  Or is it 7500 yards?

Old Corkscrew is long from the back tees but I don't visit those anyway.  It is pretty narrow - it does not have excess water for a Florida course but often you are in worse shape in the trees because of a large amount of Palmetto that results in a lost ball, an unplayable or a backwards chip out. 

I think the biggest difference is the opportunity to bailout on iron shots.  At Old Corscrew the bailout areas are pinched by significant hazards (bunkers, slopes or water) and there is not really a way to think your way to having a relatively easy chip, pitch or long putt.   
 More often, you face a very difficult shot over or around a bunch of humps in the green.

Given that 74 made it through the senior tour Monday qualifier last week (in 10-20 MPH wind) I think it is safe to say the course is a challenge for all.  http://www.sfpgagolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/ACE-Group-Event-Qualifier-Official-Results-Final-Draft.pdf

[Bryan Izatt]

Wow! Chip Beck shot an 81.  I feel better about my scores around that track now.

I, for one, have not been critical of the greens at Old Corkscrew.  I have been critical of the difficulty of the course with its relatively narrow corridors and death in the water and more often the palmettos (although at Xmas they'd cut back some of the palmetto areas) lining the fairway corridors.

The greens are difficult, complex and undulating, but in my opinion, probably a little less so than those at SS Blue. I can't think of one green there that is as difficult as Blue #7, 11, 12 or several others. They are generally smaller than the Blue and generally have more difficult and hazardous surrounds.  There aren't many where alternate types of approaches or recoveries are possible. 

I think Tom has it right - it is about the context of the greens.  At OC they are difficult greens on a difficult penal course.  At SS Blue they are more difficult greens on a relatively easier and more forgiving course.  I guess I'd see OC as a prototypical competitive championship course which is a completely different design ethos than Streamsong Blue.  I enjoy and am frustrated by the challenge at OC from time to time, but would much rather play SS Blue (if only the price were more affordable  ).

[Mike Nuzzo]

Old Corkscrew was extremely difficult.
There was a lot of hazardous area - water/trees/narrow fairways.
I would not classify the greens there as anything like at SS Blue.
I would say the Old Corkscrew greens were more traditional/formal/man made/boilerplate.
SS Blue more whimsical and organic.
Cheers

[Ed Brzezowski]

With all due respect Old Corkscrew greens were f-ing goofy. I have not had the chance to play Streamsong yet but I have heard that they give you a fair chance if you come in from the correct side of the fairway, I did not find that true of OC.

The day we played the course was set up fairly difficult considering the wind conditions that day. Several times the only prudent play was away from the flagstick and towards the center of the green. Shots hit to the long side of the green resulted in several chips ins to the water hazards. A few of the holes left you little choice but to challenge water to set up any reasonable chance at a short putt. That's nice for a hole or two but not a steady diet.

I just recall a putt where I had to turn my back to the hole to try to get it close. Played The Castle course the week it opened and it got panned for insane greens, in my opinion OC was far more goofy.

[Bryan Izatt]

Ed,

Is there anything to the right of "f-ing goofy" on your scale?  You might want to consider it after you've played SS Blue.   

From the perspective of the shot into the greens, I think it is easier to hit the SS Blue greens, especially if you're approaching the greens from the right angle.  The greens are generally maybe 50% larger than those at OC so they should be easier to hit.  Getting close to a lot of pin positions on SS Blue is another matter entirely.  There are many contours on the greens that can and do move the ball away from some pins, especially if you're coming from the wrong direction.  Trying to figure that out on your first play, or even tenth play, will be a challenge.

The SS Blue greens are also less fortified with hazards, for the most part, than the greens at OC.  As a result there are more opportunities to run the ball on at SS Blue.  There are more options to recover at SS Blue.

From this perspective, I'd say that OC is right up there in difficulty in hitting or recovering from around the greens.  I don't think it wanders into "goofy" territory - it just requires a very high skill level.

On the greens themselves, for putting, I think SS Blue is more difficult (and fun if you don't get too serious about the weird things that can happen), partly because the greens are significantly larger, often leaving you with a longer putt if you reached in regulation, and because the contours are more frequent and bolder at SS Blue.  I had a nice 4 putt at the 11th at SS Blue (they re-cut the hole right after our group went through - the hole location was untenable given the green speeds and wind that day).  Never had a 4 putt at OC in multiple plays. 

[Pat Burke]

Played the already mentioned Champions qualifier last week.
Corkscrew was tight on many tee shots.  I hit driver everywhere normally, but hit a
lot of lay ups off tees.
The greens seemed severe to me, but with no rhyme or reason.  In many cases, didn't feel
that the slopes could be used to move the ball where you wanted, just repelled from where you hit it.

I only played 2 rounds, and hole locations/wind certainly impacted a lot, but even in the practice round
I thought the course was just awkward.  I would hate to play there regularly.
I didn't play well, so probably a bit biased.

[Bryan Izatt]

.....................


The greens seemed severe to me, but with no rhyme or reason.  In many cases, didn't feel
that the slopes could be used to move the ball where you wanted, just repelled from where you hit it.


.....................

Interesting concept.  Could you expand on it.  Surely on most contoured greens the slopes are going to repel shots from certain pin locations and feed the ball to other pins.  Could it have been the course set up that day that they made most of the pins inaccessible using the slopes? I'd think it would be difficult to design greens where the slopes could be used to feed the ball to all pin locations.

Out of curiosity, do you know if they used the back tees where it's a daunting 7400 yards, rated at 77.6 and sloped at 153? Recently I've given up on the next forward (blue tees) at 6617 yards and moved to the whites, because of the difficulty.  I'm certainly nowhere near a senior tour level of player though.  I can't imagine they put even you guys all the way back. 

I noticed that there were a number of WD's.  Were those guys who were no shows or did they start and walk off.  Seemed like a lot to me in a relatively small field.  Perhaps many didn't like the venue.  It is certainly way harder than the Twin Eagles Talon course where the tour event is held.

[Tom_Doak]

the back tees where it's a daunting 7400 yards, rated at 77.6 and sloped at 153

The course rating from the back tees at Streamsong Blue is 74.1 and the slope is 131.

Surely that illustrates a big difference between the playability of the two courses.  I don't put too much stock in the Slope System, but it can't be missing by THAT much.  If the greens were unplayable the rating would be different, wouldn't it?

[Jim Nugent]

the back tees where it's a daunting 7400 yards, rated at 77.6 and sloped at 153

The course rating from the back tees at Streamsong Blue is 74.1 and the slope is 131.

Bogey rating at SS Blue is around 98.4, if I did the arithmetic right. 

Bogey rating at OC is around 106. 

The ratings say bogey should shoot around 8 strokes higher at OC.

[Jason Topp]

The greens seemed severe to me, but with no rhyme or reason.  In many cases, didn't feel
that the slopes could be used to move the ball where you wanted, just repelled from where you hit it.

This might be it.

[Josh Tarble]

From the sounds of it, Old Corkscrew sounds like it has similar greens to the Golf Club at Harbor Shores.  They are the most contoured and bumpy greens I've seen, and they don't seem to make any sense.  It's like someone turned the green upside down and hit it with a giant ball peen hammer.  Very strange.  The good thing is that Harbor Shores does seem to have a ton of width to make the greens a bit more palatable.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Can I see some photos of these greens?

[Jason Topp]

Can I see some photos of these greens?

Maybe someone else has pictures but there are a bunch on the website and a bunch of pictures on google. 
http://www.oldcorkscrew.com/-photo-gallery
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1680&bih=920&q=old+corkscrew&oq=old+corkscrew&gs_l=img.3..0l5j0i24l5.1204.3714.0.4714.13.10.0.3.3.0.82.615.9.9.0.msedr...0...1ac.1.61.img..1.12.637.vK2LZ03MFLA#imgdii=_

These pictures do not really demonstrate the difficulty.  Instead they illustrate what is very cool about the golf course.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Can I see some photos of these greens?

These are from Harbor Shores, built around the same time period. This is the 10th green.

[J_ Crisham]

Old Corkscrew should not be played by anyone over a 15 handicap. The tee boxes you play are irrelevant as the missed shot is in a hazard or bunker. Streamsong is fun golf, Old Corkscrew is not. For guys coming down after a 5 month hiatus from golf you can get it around Streamsong . Old Corkscrew is just the opposite- a little rust on the swing and it's just an aggravating place to spend a day.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Bryan right now they are the tied with one other club here in the Philly area as far as goofy. But the club here you can limit your errors and just putt off the green. Putting into a water hazard is disconcerting to me. I play to a six and usually don't screw up too badly..
Maybe it was the wind but i was really looking forward to playing the course.


I guess I must go to Streamsong now to see for myself?
ed

[Tom_Doak]

From the sounds of it, Old Corkscrew sounds like it has similar greens to the Golf Club at Harbor Shores.  They are the most contoured and bumpy greens I've seen, and they don't seem to make any sense.  It's like someone turned the green upside down and hit it with a giant ball peen hammer.  Very strange.  The good thing is that Harbor Shores does seem to have a ton of width to make the greens a bit more palatable.

Josh:

I believe the Harbor Shores greens were built by the same shaper who worked for us at Lost Dunes ... he is a shaper and associate for Jack Nicklaus now.  Though I have not seen it in person, that tenth green pictured above is reminiscent of the most severe green at Lost Dunes, the par-5 4th.

[Ken Fry]

I believe the Harbor Shores greens were built by the same shaper who worked for us at Lost Dunes ... he is a shaper and associate for Jack Nicklaus now.  Though I have not seen it in person, that tenth green pictured above is reminiscent of the most severe green at Lost Dunes, the par-5 4th.

Tom,

I had to laugh when Anthony chose the 10th green at Harbor Shores to show a photo, the most controversal green there.

I'm in the minority but I don't mind the 10th green.  It's demanding but fun.  With that said, it's very different than #4 at Lost Dunes.  I know that's been a controversal green for you and I'm glad no changes were ever done.  The 10th at Harbor Shores, beyond the massive elevation change in the middle of the green, has MULTIPLE ledges and plateaus.  Approach shots on the same level as the hole are still very challenging to putt.  The 4th at Lost Dunes is severe but putts not on the same level as the hole can still be negotiated.  Don't get above the hole on either green.

Ken

[Rick Shefchik]

I looked through my photos of OC to see if I had any that were representative of the green contours, but I don't have anything worth posting. I certainly get the preference for Streamsong Blue; I'd rather play there, too, particularly because of the width and strategic options. SB is not nearly as intimidating off the tee as OC at 6,700 yards; that's why I chose to play OC at 6,200 (I'm a 5 handicap who hadn't played in 4 months).

I can say that there were more occasions at SB where I felt out of position on the greens. I didn't find OC to be goofy golf on the greens; the tiering was more gentle than at Streamsong Blue -- not as much fun, but I never thought I was looking at a guaranteed 3-putt, either. Maybe on another day I'd share the disdain some here feel for OC, but I enjoyed my round there.

[Bryan Izatt]

Here are some photos of Old Corkscrew greens - nothing from too close though - that will give an idea of the contouring and surrounds.  You can click through to get a larger image.  Upon further thought, the surfaces at OC are not as wild as many of Doak's greens.

[Pat Burke]

.....................


The greens seemed severe to me, but with no rhyme or reason.  In many cases, didn't feel
that the slopes could be used to move the ball where you wanted, just repelled from where you hit it.[/b

.....................

Interesting concept.  Could you expand on it.  Surely on most contoured greens the slopes are going to repel shots from certain pin locations and feed the ball to other pins.  Could it have been the course set up that day that they made most of the pins inaccessible using the slopes? I'd think it would be difficult to design greens where the slopes could be used to feed the ball to all pin locations.

Out of curiosity, do you know if they used the back tees where it's a daunting 7400 yards, rated at 77.6 and sloped at 153? Recently I've given up on the next forward (blue tees) at 6617 yards and moved to the whites, because of the difficulty.  I'm certainly nowhere near a senior tour level of player though.  I can't imagine they put even you guys all the way back. 

I noticed that there were a number of WD's.  Were those guys who were no shows or did they start and walk off.  Seemed like a lot to me in a relatively small field.  Perhaps many didn't like the venue.  It is certainly way harder than the Twin Eagles Talon course where the tour event is held.

Bryan  did NOT play full length.  To me, it made it worse.  Just hit 3 woods and hybrids short of trouble many times.
Most tees were up a bit.

They obviously were worried about the wind that was forecast.  I mentioned in my post that some of the issues were set up for the day.
Watched shots from all of us land a PacMan away, often with no place to land or bounce a ball into a decent location.
Kind of a typical thing I don't like on Nicklaus courses.  if you can hit it nuclear high you can get it around many holes, but when it's
blowing 20+ , that isn't exactly a go to shot.
There were still 6  guys who got through, sure they liked it at least a little more than I did!!