Who designs the best greens of the modern architects?

[Mark_Fine]

I just spent some time at Long Cove Club.  I have seen A LOT of Pete Dye courses and Long Cove reminds me again about just how good Pete’s greens/green complexes really are!  His greens are not wild for the sake of wild, there are rarely if ever clown’s mouths to hit through, and there is always enough internal contour and subtleties to create challenge, interest, (and confusion).  His green surfaces are also beautifully integrated with the approach and surrounds.  C&C might be a close second.  Any thoughts?

[Anthony_Nysse]

LCC is so underrated among Pete's best, in my opinion. So much different than Harbour Town and Colleton River, yet all 10 miles apart. The movements from left to right, back to front offer so many pins and chipping options. We always had to keep that in mind when I was an Assistant there. Long Cove is near and dear to my heart. In my opinion, it's best course in Low Country and fits in the low country.

[Mark_Fine]

I agree about Long Cove.  Clearly one of the best sets of greens that Pete ever did.

[Mike Nuzzo]

A green is nothing without the rest of the hole. (but a great green can make something out of a nothing hole)
How would you compare the greens here vs. the greens there without accounting for the rest of the hole?
If I were to describe Dye's qualities, i wouldn't talk about the greens for at least a few minutes.
I have not been to Long Cove, but I have seen enough others.

[Jason Topp]

Coore/Crenshaw get my vote.  Plenty of interesting contour but you usually have a good chance at par with a decent approach.

[Tim_Weiman]

A green is nothing without the rest of the hole. (but a great green can make something out of a nothing hole)
How would you compare the greens here vs. the greens there without accounting for the rest of the hole?
If I were to describe Dye's qualities, i wouldn't talk about the greens for at least a few minutes.
I have not been to Long Cove, but I have seen enough others.

Mike,

I agree with you. Greens are not the first thing that comes to mind when thinking about Pete Dye. It has been a very long time since I played Long Cove and it was a treat, but, again, I don't recall the greens standing out there any more than at Harbor Town, the Ocean Course, etc.

[Tom_Doak]

I have not been to Long Cove, but I have seen enough others.

Mike,

I agree with you. Greens are not the first thing that comes to mind when thinking about Pete Dye. It has been a very long time since I played Long Cove and it was a treat, but, again, I don't recall the greens standing out there any more than at Harbor Town, the Ocean Course, etc.

One of you has never been there, and one doesn't remember that well !

I would not say that Pete Dye's greens are the focal point of his designs, generally.  But Long Cove's greens are exceptional, both for Pete's work and in comparison to most modern designs.  Since it was the first place I worked in the field, those greens had a definite effect on my interest in putting contour into my own greens.

[Jon Wiggett]

Purely from the point of interest and fun on and around the green I have not come across anyone who designed better green complexes than John Chilver-Stainer. I have worked on a few of his projects and played many others and he always produces greens with plenty of interesting and challenging pin positions. I suspect if he had built his courses in the UK instead of Switzerland he would be a household name on here.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Not being a fan of a lot rolly polly up n' down greens, I was quite taken by Adrian's greens at the Stranahan.  I spose Doak's greens at RC are very good if seriously compromised by narrow fairways.  I spose I haven't come across a modern set of greens I like as much as any number of classic designs. 

Ciao

[Tim_Weiman]

I have not been to Long Cove, but I have seen enough others.

Mike,

I agree with you. Greens are not the first thing that comes to mind when thinking about Pete Dye. It has been a very long time since I played Long Cove and it was a treat, but, again, I don't recall the greens standing out there any more than at Harbor Town, the Ocean Course, etc.

One of you has never been there, and one doesn't remember that well !

I would not say that Pete Dye's greens are the focal point of his designs, generally.  But Long Cove's greens are exceptional, both for Pete's work and in comparison to most modern designs.  Since it was the first place I worked in the field, those greens had a definite effect on my interest in putting contour into my own greens.

Tom,

My recollection of Long Cove was being really impressed by how classy the course and it's setting felt. That kind of overwhelmed the details of the place, at least for me.

It is a thirty year old memory, but accurate, I believe, at least in terms of how I felt at the time.

Maybe it is time to go back!

[Mark_Fine]

I agree that most people don't think of Pete Dye's greens when they think of Pete Dye.  However, if you study his greens (and look beyond all the other things Pete is more well known for) they are some of the best in all of golf.  They are really well thought out and consistently exceptional from course to course. 

[Bill Brightly]

Is Long Cove riding carts only?

[Tim_Weiman]

I agree that most people don't think of Pete Dye's greens when they think of Pete Dye.  However, if you study his greens (and look beyond all the other things Pete is more well known for) they are some of the best in all of golf.  They are really well thought out and consistently exceptional from course to course. 

Mark,

I think you have used the right word - study. Some of Pete Dye's courses have so much else going on that I was hard pressed to give the greens any thought at all. Blackwolf Run is an excellent example, IMO. Loved playing it on a few occasions and loved the challenge of many holes, but honestly, I couldn't tell you the first thing about the greens. Ditto for PGA West, the Ocean course, Whistling Straits, etc.

[Mark Pritchett]

Is Long Cove riding carts only?

No.  It is a pleasant walk when the weather is cool/mild and a pleasant ride in the dog days of summer.  

I agree the greens at LCC are top notch, and not just among Dye courses.  

[Anthony_Nysse]

A green is nothing without the rest of the hole. (but a great green can make something out of a nothing hole)
How would you compare the greens here vs. the greens there without accounting for the rest of the hole?
If I were to describe Dye's qualities, i wouldn't talk about the greens for at least a few minutes.
I have not been to Long Cove, but I have seen enough others.

I wouldn't compare Long Cove to Petes other stuff. You should see it before generalizing it.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Is Long Cove riding carts only?

No, sir. At least when I was there, nearly 45% was walking. Lots of push carts.

[Mac Plumart]

Mike Riley

[Mark Pearce]

I enjoyed the greens at Renaissance Club even though I couldn't read them at all.  Quite subtle but very interesting.  Gil Hanse's greens at Crail Craighead are really good, all having some interest and presenting challenge but only a couple of wacky ones.  I'd love to get back to Swinkelsche and play those greens rolling a bit faster than they were when BUDA was there just after the course opened.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Hmmm, my recollection of LC was that the fairway grading was sort of over cooked.  It might be that I played it at an ASGCA meeting, and heard Pete describe his intent to use contours to stop long hitters (always gently uphill in the long LZ, although, I think I may have reached it from the tees played.

And, I think I thought the green contours were also more than the usual Pete Dye stuff, although, when you compare it to Harbor Town's small greens, it probably couldn't be any other way.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Hmmm, my recollection of LC was that the fairway grading was sort of over cooked.  It might be that I played it at an ASGCA meeting, and heard Pete describe his intent to use contours to stop long hitters (always gently uphill in the long LZ, although, I think I may have reached it from the tees played.

And, I think I thought the green contours were also more than the usual Pete Dye stuff, although, when you compare it to Harbor Town's small greens, it probably couldn't be any other way.

I don't think that your can compare HT to LC in any way other than the architect and oak trees. Everything at HT is flat or VERY subtle, tight and small. LC is bigger, bolder, movement will a different use of angles. I think LC has more variety for the player who is going to play 3-4x a week.

[Mark_Fine]

Jeff,
Harbour Town's greens average 3700 sq ft so there is only so much internal contour you can put in those and still have enough hole locations to spread out wear.  Still they are well integrated with their surrounds and have lots of subtle movement.  The grain complicates putting as well.

Love Cove's fairway grading is well done.  Nothing rolly polly or symmetrical (which I personally don't like).  Pete took a flat piece of ground and made it quite interesting with lots of character.  Again the greens to me are the best part of the golf course.  One can learn a lot by studying how well Pete integrated those greens with the surrounds/approaches.  The internal movement and contour works and has purpose and is not just there because greens need movement and contour to have interest (I see this a lot on greens where the architect is either repetitive with their humps and bumps and shelves and compartmentalization or are just wacky and wild for the sake of it).  You just don't see that much on Pete Dye greens.  That is why I think he just might be the best of the modern architects for building greens!

In fact, I am going to give much of the credit to Alice.  She is the one who offer came out and reigned Pete in and made sure the course was still interesting but playable for most levels of golfers.  It is one thing to try to "defend par at the green" but it is very easy to get carried away.  She kept him in control. 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Jeff,
Harbour Town's greens average 3700 sq ft so there is only so much internal contour you can put in those and still have enough hole locations to spread out wear.  Still they are well integrated with their surrounds and have lots of subtle movement.  The grain complicates putting as well.

Love Cove's fairway grading is well done.  Nothing rolly polly or symmetrical (which I personally don't like).  Pete took a flat piece of ground and made it quite interesting with lots of character.  Again the greens to me are the best part of the golf course.  One can learn a lot by studying how well Pete integrated those greens with the surrounds/approaches.  The internal movement and contour works and has purpose and is not just there because greens need movement and contour to have interest (I see this a lot on greens where the architect is either repetitive with their humps and bumps and shelves and compartmentalization or are just wacky and wild for the sake of it).  You just don't see that much on Pete Dye greens.  That is why I think he just might be the best of the modern architects for building greens!

In fact, I am going to give much of the credit to Alice.  She is the one who offer came out and reigned Pete in and made sure the course was still interesting but playable for most levels of golfers.  It is one thing to try to "defend par at the green" but it is very easy to get carried away.  She kept him in control. 

We were closer to 8000ft2 average. Crazy.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike Strantz was an architect whose designs I loved but I often felt Mike would have benefited from an "Alice" to reign him in a little as he often pushed things too far (some of his greens included). 

[Sam Morrow]

I'm going Mike Nuzzo, Rob Collins,  and Mike Riley.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff,
Harbour Town's greens average 3700 sq ft so there is only so much internal contour you can put in those and still have enough hole locations to spread out wear.  Still they are well integrated with their surrounds and have lots of subtle movement.  The grain complicates putting as well.

And what part of my post made you (or Anthony) think I didn't understand that?