Par 4 Redan

[RDecker]

Just looking at preview of Riviera and thinking that the 10th is essentially a Par 4 Redan.  What do you folks think?  Is this possible, in todays pro game it almost plays as a long par 3 anyway but when Thomas built it this was not the case.

[C. Sturges]

Rdecker,

Todays pro's play #10 as a risk, reward hole.  If you go for the green and miss you are faced with a very difficult second shot, were four quickly becomes a good score, vs hitting two mid iron shots and having a putt for birdie.  And most shots on the green are birdie try's with the small size of the green.
It does have some characteristics of a redan, but not enough for me to call it one.  Especially since I believe it is the fourth hole, that is a par 3 redan, with out the blind factor of North Berwick's. 

Either way it is a wonderful course and a joy to play!  Maybe Geoff and Lynn will post with more information. 
chris

[Jeff_Brauer]

At Blue Mound, I think the 10th is called par 4 redan, no?  Proving Raynor did them on par 4 holes at least once in a while,,,,

[Chris Hans]

#12 at Fishers Island

[Steve Salmen]

I've always thought the first and eleventh at Chicago GC are very Redan-like, only more fun and fair than #7.

[Jason Thurman]

I don't see it at Riviera's 10th. I'm under the impression that the green doesn't slope in the correct direction, if nothing else.

The 10th at Black Creek has a case though - a drivable par 4 with a pronounced high right kick plate and a green angled at 45 degrees around a massive bunker:

[PCCraig]

At Blue Mound, I think the 10th is called par 4 redan, no?  Proving Raynor did them on par 4 holes at least once in a while,,,,

Jeff,

If I remember correctly, the redan at Blue Mound is #1?

[Rees Milikin]

At Blue Mound, I think the 10th is called par 4 redan, no?  Proving Raynor did them on par 4 holes at least once in a while,,,,

Jeff,

If I remember correctly, the redan at Blue Mound is #1?

Yes it's #1

[Rich Goodale]

The highly under-rated 15th at Dornoch has a redanish green, and plays as a "Redan" for the flat-bellies (or John Daly's) of the world from the front tees (300 yds), even though the actual green is largely obscured from the tee due to the 20 ft hump in the middle of the fairway 200 yards out.  But then again, any real Redan will have the green largely obscured, as per the 15th at North Berwick......

[SL_Solow]

As appoint of clarification, I presume you are inquiring about "driveable" par 4's with Redan features.  There are numerous par 4's with Redan like (or Reverse Redan like) greens and surrounds.  If you want to discuss those, please clarify.

[Jon Cavalier]

I love a good par four redan, with the reverse redan par-4 12th hole at Fishers Island being among my favorites.  The added strategy of being able to pick your line off the tee and attempt to choose the angle and distance from which you want to play into the redan green is a nice change of pace and, in my opinion, makes for a really fun golf hole when done well.  Plus, the typically fast turf at Fishers makes this hole potentially driveable for some players.  Others that spring to mind are the 1st at Fox Chapel and the 11th at Yale (though neither are driveable par-4s).

The 12th at Fishers Island:

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

A par-4 Reverse Redan concept appears on many Seth Raynor courses. The first hole at Hotchkiss is one, I believe. The 8th at Yale has the quality of a two-shot Redan.

From the March 1918 issue of The Olympian magazine, the in-house publication of the Olympic Club, in which Seth Raynor is interviewed about  his proposed revamping of the Lakeside Course that was rejected by the club.

"Again Mr. Raynor grew enthusiastic when discussing the seventeenth hole, a reversed Redan, which has been constructed on many of his courses."

[Phil McDade]

At Blue Mound, I think the 10th is called par 4 redan, no?  Proving Raynor did them on par 4 holes at least once in a while,,,,

Jeff,

If I remember correctly, the redan at Blue Mound is #1?

Yes it is! (Well, #1 is the two-shot Redan. The par 3 Redan at Blue Mound -- and it's a terrific one -- is #13.)

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45401.0.html

[Bill_McBride]

The first at the Creek Club has a great right side kick plate.

[Jeff_Brauer]

At Blue Mound, I think the 10th is called par 4 redan, no?  Proving Raynor did them on par 4 holes at least once in a while,,,,

Jeff,

If I remember correctly, the redan at Blue Mound is #1?

Yes it's #1

LOL, I guess I played the back nine first for some reason.....

[Jim_Kennedy]

A par-4 Reverse Redan concept appears on many Seth Raynor courses. The first hole at Hotchkiss is one, I believe. The 8th at Yale has the quality of a two-shot Redan.

From the March 1918 issue of The Olympian magazine, the in-house publication of the Olympic Club, in which Seth Raynor is interviewed about  his proposed revamping of the Lakeside Course that was rejected by the club.

"Again Mr. Raynor grew enthusiastic when discussing the seventeenth hole, a reversed Redan, which has been constructed on many of his courses."

Anthony,

I remember well the day Gib was in Ct. and played our course. He came in the shop at the end of his nine and said "What the heck was Raynor thinking when he built that hole.

I just figured he took a 6. 

[JimB]

Have not seen too many in the ground but like the concept. One of the finalists, and if I'm not mistaken, the eventual winner of the 2010 MacKenzie Society Lido Prize Competition was called "Double Redan". It looked like it would be a very fun hole to play through dunes with a centerline bunker and a kick plate to the right of it that could be used to play around and past to the preferred part of the fairway if the driver did not have the ability to carry it. Another kick plate to he right of the green and a Redan bunker in front.

[Ian Andrew]

The first at the Creek Club has a great right side kick plate.

The green falls away too... that's a great one.

Knollwood's opener is a weak version of a Redan too.

[Sean_A]

Wouldn't you need a longish par 4 to be a two-shot Redan?

Ciao

[Bill Brightly]

#12 at Fishers Island

Raynor built a Redan on the front nine. Although the 12th green will feed to the pin, I highly doubt he decided to create a new hole, a two shot Redan on the back nine.

[Sven Nilsen]

Bill:

The first write up for The Creek Club (April 13, 1922 New York Times) described both a Redan par 3 (the 8th) and a par 4 with a "Redan shape green" at the 13th.  I'm pretty sure the descriptions of the holes came from Raynor himself, as the course hadn't yet been built.

Sven

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

The par 4 redan at the Creek is the 1st hole.  It has a wonderful kicker that works well even with  SW in trying to work the ball onto pins close to the deep fronting bunker.
Tom Doak built a reverse redan on the 1st at North Shore.  It works well in setting the mood for the round.
Finally, the 10th at Riviera is nothing close to a redan.  The fairway gently slopes down valley.  The green slopes slightly front to back and significantly right to left in the forward 2/3 of the green.  I cannot think of a more precise tee shot required among drivable par 4's!

[Sven Nilsen]

The par 4 redan at the Creek is the 1st hole.  It has a wonderful kicker that works well even with  SW in trying to work the ball onto pins close to the deep fronting bunker.
Tom Doak built a reverse redan on the 1st at North Shore.  It works well in setting the mood for the round.
Finally, the 10th at Riviera is nothing close to a redan.  The fairway gently slopes down valley.  The green slopes slightly front to back and significantly right to left in the forward 2/3 of the green.  I cannot think of a more precise tee shot required among drivable par 4's!

Robert:

Here's how the 1st and 13th at the Creek Club were described at the start of construction. 

Sven

[Patrick_Mucci]

There's nothing about Riviera's 10th hole that makes it play like a Redan.

# 1 at The Creek is a neat Redan that would be a great Redan with a little more length.

[Blake Conant]

#7 at Santa Anita Golf Course in Arcadia, CA, a par 4, has the front right kicker, left bunker, and green sloping front right to back left.  #8, a long par 3, also has some Redan characteristics, but the green doesn't work like it should.  Could be the only course with back to back Redan inspired holes, though.