[Jerry Kluger]

Let's say an architect has unlimited options for the design of the 18th hole at a course he is about to build - what's his best option?  I know there are great courses with a par 3 18th but I don't think that would be a serious consideration - perhaps a par 3 19th hole but not 18th.  The most common theme I have seen is a tough and long par 4 but I find that to be more for bragging rights than what most golfers would prefer. Should there be a difference if the course is a private club or a public course? I am not really interested in how it would play if it were a PGA tour stop or if it would host a US Open. Let's concentrate on a course at a private club or a top quality resort like Streamsong, Bandon, Kohler, etc.

Personally, I think the risk/reward par 5 is the ideal finishing hole.  It poses a challenge to all level of players who have the opportunity to play it well and make a good score plus it can be exciting as a final hole in match whether match or stroke play. 

[Chris Pearson]

Jerry, I completely agree here. Par 5 finishers are the most fun for both players and fans.

For my money, Valhalla's 18th was the best finishing hole on tour in 2014. Phil nearly holed out a chip for eagle, and Rory—after narrowly missing the hazard with his tee shot—struggled to make a par to close out the tournament.

You simply don't get those big-swing possibilities with brutal par 4s or the rare closing one-shotter, and the suspense this creates is one of the things I look forward to the most when watching the pros.

That said, you could play devil's advocate and suggest a brutal closer like the 18th at Sawgrass, and I wouldn't deny that this is a great finishing hole. However, there's a huge difference between the likelihood of a bogey (or worse) and the eagle-birdie-par scenario presented by a risk-reward par 5. It's achievement versus attrition, and I'd prefer to see achievement every time.

[Wade Whitehead]

A course where I used to play (but which is now closed) had a par four eighteenth that was drivable (but with a devilish green) under certain conditions.  It produced some great finishes.

WW

[Wade Whitehead]

And it followed a reachable par five seventeenth.

WW

[Jerry Kluger]

It is also a question of what type of hole would you want to play over and over again as a member in your weekend nassau and in club competitions, and is there is difference if you are just going to play it a few times as a visitor. 

[Joe Hancock]

I would ask whether we're talking professional, competitive golf, or fun, club-type golf. Then I would ask if that should make any difference. Personally, I don't want the same level of challenge that the Tour guys face, typically, in the 18th hole design. I want to end the round with a fun, memorable hole that gives me a reasonable chance to smile during my after-round beer.

Joe

[Jason Way]

As a generalization, I think half-pars of all sorts make for good finishing holes (whether the half is in the easy or the difficult direction).  They are always interesting. 

In a four-ball match with my buddies, I like a finishing hole that is tough enough to weed out 2 of the four players by the time the green is reached, if the match gets that far.  It's fun when a match comes down to 2 guys putting.

And of course, memorable.  Leave me with one final great memory.

Random musings on a Sunday morning...

[Thomas Dai]

How about a hole akin to the 10th at Riviera? Would that make a good 18th? I would have thought it would keep the players attention until the very last second.
atb

[Jerry Kluger]

I would agree that half pars are really good finishing holes.  The thing about the par 5 is that unless the long hitter makes an outstanding shot, the shorter hitter can still be in the hole with a well played wedge.

At the professional level it doesn't seem that there are many 18th holes left that are very difficult unless the conditions are extremely tough.  Extremely firm greens or a bunch of wind may be the only thing that can make it difficult for them.  But I am not directing this discussion to the very best players.  I want to know what type of 18th hole you would want if you were playing a course on a regular basis or if you took a golfing trip and wanted to fondly remember the 18th hole.

[Ken Moum]

I would ask whether we're talking professional, competitive golf, or fun, club-type golf. Then I would ask if that should make any difference. Personally, I don't want the same level of challenge that the Tour guys face, typically, in the 18th hole design.

I want to end the round with a fun, memorable hole that gives me a reasonable chance to smile during my after-round beer.

Joe

I love the way you summed that up.

I have been thinking about this a bit lately, because I am in AZ and there are a few finishing holes on "resort" courses that leave me shaking my head.

Whyinhell any course operator would accept an 18th hole that almost guarantees the majority of their customers will leave the course frustrated, pissed off and unhappy escapes me. I've been thinking about starting a thread that's opposite of this, ie., what are the worst finishing holes you've seen.

Two of the nines at Ocotillo Golf Resort present an obstacle that I've never seen anyone leave with a smile on their face in about 6 rounds.

And Tuesday I'll be playing Superstition Springs Golf Club, where the 18th has consistently produced similar results.  In fact, I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually finish the hole.

FWIW, these three holes all involve forced carries over water. And the water is positioned such that most of their customers have no chance.

K

[Kyle Harris]

#18 at the course I grew up playing: Our local muni, the venerable and elite Warminster's Five Ponds Golf Club benchmarked ideal finishers for me to this day.

330 yards and one of the easier holes on the course, but with enough trouble to swing a match/hold concentration with careless play.

[Sean_A]

Ideal?  I first ask that the green be near the house...anything less than this is not ideal.  For me, a properly driveable par 4 with an interesting/welcoming view is ideal.  Lots of guys can finish on a high with big driving or adept short game play. TOC, North Berwick, Kington...all do the job admirably. Not quite in the same class, but damn fine...Wallasey

Ciao

[Brett Wiesley]

I agree with the par 5 or half par 4 but on the soft side. Definitely not a stroke hole for match purposes and also one you can finish a round on and not collapse in hazards and throw a round away.  You want to finish happy and enjoy that cold beer.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The 18th holes at NGLA, Pebble Beach, Sebonack and Pacific Dunes would seem to be ideal for those favoring a par 5 finish.

# 18 at BPB would seem ideal for those favoring a short par 4.

But, if those are your ideals, how do you view the 18th holes at Merion, Sand Hills, Oakmont, Riviera & WFW ?
Not your cups of tea ?

[BCowan]

Let's say an architect has unlimited options for the design of the 18th hole at a course he is about to build - what's his best option?  I know there are great courses with a par 3 18th but I don't think that would be a serious consideration - perhaps a par 3 19th hole but not 18th.  The most common theme I have seen is a tough and long par 4 but I find that to be more for bragging rights than what most golfers would prefer. Should there be a difference if the course is a private club or a public course? I am not really interested in how it would play if it were a PGA tour stop or if it would host a US Open. Let's concentrate on a course at a private club or a top quality resort like Streamsong, Bandon, Kohler, etc.

Personally, I think the risk/reward par 5 is the ideal finishing hole.  It poses a challenge to all level of players who have the opportunity to play it well and make a good score plus it can be exciting as a final hole in match whether match or stroke play. 

I think reachable par 5 18ths have been a Fad for 25 years that i don't like.  The land should dictate the hole.  I love a short par 4 finishing hole like Kingsley or Inverness.  I don't understand the knocking of a par 3 finishing hole.  So USGA line of thinking.  Settling bets on the 11th hole a par 3 on my home course near dark was a blast. 

So a great short par 3 like #2 at Kingsley wouldn't be an awesome finishing hole? 

[Jerry Kluger]

I am not disputing that there are some outstanding par 3 finishing holes nor am I disputing that there are some very tough par 4 finishing holes that are really good but the question is what is the ideal 18th hole?  What do you want for a finishing hole at your home club that you will play most often during the year?  What do you think the best finishing hole is for a golf destination? 

Let me throw one out there: Forget the logistics but if it were possible would the first hole at Sand Hills be a better finishing hole than the current 18th hole? I am not by any stretch of the imagination saying that the current 18th hole is not a great hole, but if you were building a new course that had the topography whereby your 18th hole would be very close to what is the first hole at SH would there be any reason that you wouldn't want to use it?

[Joe Melchiors]

I wonder how much the perspective on this changes based on handicap. For a mid-handicap player (at least this one), the par 4.5 plays similar to a standard par 5 for the better player.  It provides a pretty big psychological lift when played well, regardless of whether one is gaining on the field.  Human nature being what it is, finishing with a hole like that, compared to having it somewhere in the middle, feels very different.  A few years ago I had a terrible round at Valhalla going, found the green on 18 in two and look back at that day now in reasonably positive manner   .  At Forsgate, I really liked 18 architecturally, but almost always had a mid iron off a downhill lie to a reasonably difficult green complex.  No matter how well I was playing, my chances of pulling off that shot was never great and therefore par was a great score for me, but it never felt great.  We're all still playing against what is marked on the scorecard and it sure is nice drawing a circle instead of a square, especially on 18.

I'm not sure whether the architect should take any of this into account or not, just that it's kind of nice when it works.

[Matt OBrien]

#18 at the course I grew up playing: Our local muni, the venerable and elite Warminster's Five Ponds Golf Club benchmarked ideal finishers for me to this day.

330 yards and one of the easier holes on the course, but with enough trouble to swing a match/hold concentration with careless play.

I have been involved in, and witnessed many matches won and lost on that hole. I have come to the conclusion that 4i is the play for that tee.

[Jim Franklin]

Personally, I love the 18th at Baltimore CC. It is 384, with an uphill tee shot. It is a birdie opportunity with a well struck drive, but the green can be tricky. It is not a stroke hole so it is a nice match play finisher. It would not be Matt Ward's cup of tea.

As for the 18th on Merion, Sand Hills, Oakmont, WFW, and Riviera, they are fine for what they are. 80% were built to host the big boys and the other is generally firm and fast so you at least will get some run out.

[archie_struthers]

 


What's the difference between a hard par four as the finisher or a risk reward par five. Both are very similar . A really hard par four can be played conservatively as can the par five.  If two players are finishing a tough match on 18 and are even, par becomes irrelevant .

Just build a good hole !

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

I would disagree.

Ask yourself, do you want to walk off the 18th green with a bogey or worse on a difficult par 4, or a par or a birdie on a par 5 ?

Mike Pascucci got it right when he overrode Jack Nicklaus and Tom Doak at Sebonack.
 


What's the difference between a hard par four as the finisher or a risk reward par five. Both are very similar . A really hard par four can be played conservatively as can the par five.  If two players are findihing a tough match on 18 and are even, par becomes irrelevant .

Just build a good hole !

[archie_struthers]

Nope Pat , not biting . Not interested in any formulaic 18th . Not short , long , hard , heroic , risk reward or whatever.

Just interested in building a  good hole that flows with the previous 17 and completes the circle. I'm all for having fun and letting people walk away feeling good , but might establish that earlier . No gimmes for me, or intentionally  brutal , just build what fits!

[John Cowden]

A thoughtful, well-conceived and challenging par three, with an elevation change. And just the right length to get in the player's head. The green will be significant, with discrete pin placements challenging the tee shot.  I like 120-170 yards.  Pucker time. 

[Jerry Kluger]

You guys should remember that my question was the ideal 18th hole with no limitations concerning the existing land. 

Let's say Gil Hanse is building the third course at Streamsong and the ownership explains to him that the mounding is not natural at all and was the result of them digging up the sand, removing the phosphate, and then putting back the sand wherever was the most efficient.  And they have the equipment necessary to move the sand wherever he wants so he basically has a blank canvas.  BTW: It was explained to us when we were at Streamsong that Bill Coore had finished routing the Red Course when he was told that they hadn't removed all the phosphate and after they did he had to entirely reroute the front nine.  So should Gil look at this as an opportunity and move the sand or should he route the course as the sand presents itself?   

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