Deepdale GC and Dick Wilson... Opinions?

[abmack]

I often see references to Deepdale GC either on people's NYC ‘hidden gems’ lists or in some bizarre context. Last year, for instance, Golf Digest ( http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2014-11/best-damn-clubs) listed it as a “top 20 place to let it all hang out”(?). For some reason, everyone from Golf Digest to GCA members ( http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,14424.0.html) talks about their showers, which I can only assume must be life-altering. "The Dale" seems to have gained something akin to cult status in the NY area, though I'm not sure why.

When it comes to the golf course, people seem to agree that it is of high quality (Doak: 7). In the Confidential Guide, Mr. Doak  calls it one of Dick Wilson's very best layouts, but not without referencing the USGA/Calcutta scandal (whatever that was). Surprisingly, I couldn't find much discussion of the course in the GCA archive but I'm interested in learning more. Does anyone who knows the course have an opinion of the its architectural merits and where it earns such high marks?

[Ian Andrew]

I have played a couple of times and been round it a couple times too.

The greens are steep and lightening fast and that becomes the focus of play because of all the front bunkers.
Favorite hole is the 15th, but that great green is too much at the speed they maintain them at.

Everything is well-bunkered, particularly around the greens.
I do think think the placement is a little too consistent, but perhaps that's just me.
Lots of fairway bunkers that pinch in some landings in key spots, generally well placed.
I do like the fact that it still retains the original style of bunkers.

Driving there is challenging because there are a lot of strong doglegs set in heavy trees.
You often have to choose something other than a driver because of the shape.

There's also some nice undulation to the the property.
Maintenance is stellar, Tom Fedora does a great job.

If you are on twitter type: #CourseOfTheDay - and you will find 4 pictures of Deepdale posted today.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I believe that there are 7 doglegs on the front nine, 4 on the back nine.

As mentioned, the greens are very steep.

Hard to believe that it's a Doak 7.

It's on the old Grace Estate and the food and services, golf and non-golf are exceptional.

[abmack]

Ian,

Nice pics on Twitter. I'll need to keep an eye on future #courseoftheday posts.

I don't think the course has changed much since Wilson built it in the late-50s. Here's a (bad) picture of his original routing plan.


Note: Though this plan shows that Wilson originally conceived of 15 as a par 5, it was not built that way.

Other than being over-treed, I am at a loss for how the course could improve without compromising its original character. Changes, for instance, which reconfigure the bunkering in certain places, would increase the variety of shots that you need to play but might also feel out-of-place.

I feel very strongly about preserving the work of Golden Age architects. I believe that courses designed and built by one of the masters, eg. Mackenzie, Macdonald, Ross, et al., merit preservation, restoration, and study. In an ideal world, greens committees and architects would refrain from attempting to improve these classic courses by carrying out unnecessary modern renovations. (a necessary change would be one induced by changing realities, eg. liability concerns...)

I'm not sure that I feel that Dick Wilson's work is in the same league, though. I could be wrong but I associate him with with architects like RTJ, Sr. and George Fazio.

I guess this brings up an important question... Do fine Dick Wilson courses like Deepdale and Meadowbrook fall into the same category as the classics from the Golden Age? Should these clubs also be discouraged (equally strongly) from making changes which are not in keeping with the designer's original plan?

[J_ Crisham]

I would hate to see Wilson's Pine Tree changed - it has to be one of the best courses built on dead flat property anywhere. I consider it a Florida Classic design. Some terrific strategic bunkering that defends the aerial game. Wilson was very good IMO.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I would hate to see Wilson's Pine Tree changed - it has to be one of the best courses built on dead flat property anywhere. I consider it a Florida Classic design. Some terrific strategic bunkering that defends the aerial game. Wilson was very good IMO.

I would hate to see anything change away from Wilson's intent. Went down that road 10 years ago....Ron Forse has done a wonderful job putting the pieces back together.

[J_ Crisham]

I would hate to see Wilson's Pine Tree changed - it has to be one of the best courses built on dead flat property anywhere. I consider it a Florida Classic design. Some terrific strategic bunkering that defends the aerial game. Wilson was very good IMO.

I would hate t see anything change away from Wilson's intent. Went down that road 10 years ago....Ron Forse has done a wonderful job putting the pieces back together.

Plus the supt at Pine Tree is pretty good as well- forgot to mention that

[abmack]

I've never played Pine Tree but I've heard some great things.

Aside: I grew up in Palm Beach County and when I was in high school, I went to a house party which spilled onto the course. I'd heard of the course at the time but it was too dark to see much of anything... At some point, I definitely want to play it!

Maybe Pine Tree is a special case of Wilson's work. Building a good course in flat south Florida is an accomplishment and for that reason it deserves preservation. Deepdale is a fine course but I don't think it is not an important example of New York golf architecture and therefore I would not be immediately opposed to proposed course changes if I though they were constructive.

I the 9th, 10th, 12th, and 16th as identify Deepdale's weak holes. Though these aren't bad holes, adding some strategy could make them better. I'm not sure how potential changes would work but I suspect some simple tree removal on 9 and 16 would do wonders.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I've never played Pine Tree but I've heard some great things.

Aside: I grew up in Palm Beach County and when I was in high school, I went to a house party which spilled onto the course. I'd heard of the course at the time but it was too dark to see much of anything... At some point, I definitely want to play it!

Maybe Pine Tree is a special case of Wilson's work. Building a good course in flat south Florida is an accomplishment and for that reason it deserves preservation. Deepdale is a fine course but I don't think it is not an important example of New York golf architecture and therefore I would not be immediately opposed to proposed course changes if I though they were constructive.

I the 9th, 10th, 12th, and 16th as identify Deepdale's weak holes. Though these aren't bad holes, adding some strategy could make them better. I'm not sure how potential changes would work but I suspect some simple tree removal on 9 and 16 would do wonders.

I trust Hogan's opinion 

[ChipOat]

I have played Deepdale quite often.  Pat Mucci's observations are spot-on.

Not really a hidden gem as the original golf course (now Lake Success) was William K. Vanderbilt's private course on his estate called, guess what?, Deepdale!  It's better known than Inwood or St. George's, for example.

Cult status comes from the days when they had 50+ big money members (it was controlled by the Allen family until about 10 years ago when the members bought it.)  Many of the Links Golf Club members joined Deepdale when LGC was sold.  Unaccompanied guests were allowed in the summer when all the members were in Southampton or Europe; not allowed in the spring or fall when they were at home in NYC.  Now that number is closer to 200, but it's still not cheap and it's still very quiet in July and August.

It's a tough piece of property, which is why Dick Wilson gets high marks for figuring out how to put a real golf course on it.  Seven holes on the front are doglegs and six of them are quite sharp - pretty much right angles.  Four holes on the inward nine are also doglegs although only #'s 15 and 18 is a 90 degree angle.  Most people think more of Meadowbrook, which had all the property in the world as a place for Wilson to start.  Four blind tee shots in the first 10 holes.

Deepdale, like Stanwich and Meadowbrook, is a (Dick) Wilson course whose otherwise-excellent greens now stimp much higher than they were designed to accomodate - one of two pet peeves in golf architecture.  Above the hole, or even sidehill, on 8 of the 18 holes is "fuhgedaboutit".  Strangely, the other 10 greens are relatively benign - I never understood that and I never asked the super.

The showers are, indeed, 12 on a scale of 10 although Garden City Golf can also make that claim, to think of just one.

[ChipOat]

Follow up:

All the sharp dogleg holes off the tee are to the left.  Deepdale is much more difficult for anyone who cannot hit a draw (e.g. me) than for a good ball striker who can.

Proportionately speaking, Lee Trevino might find Deepdale more challenging than Augusta!

[Jeff Spittel]

I had the pleasure of playing there a few summers ago. I recall quite a few familiar and prominent names on the lockers, exceptional hospitality, a lovely clubhouse, undulating property, deep bunkering and incredibly quick greens.

The course was empty on a beautiful Friday morning in June.

The head pro, Darrell Kestner, is an extemely accomplished player and a wonderful host.

   

[Patrick_Mucci]

ABMack,

Dick Wilson's body of work is pretty impressive.

He may be one of the most underrated architects in modern times.

Architecturally, Deepdale may be on the low end of his totem pole.

[Tom_Doak]

Many of the Links Golf Club members joined Deepdale when LGC was sold. 

Many?  I'd heard that The Links only had 13 members when it was sold, and most of them were 80+ years old.  Two were members at Piping Rock, which is how I arranged to take photos of it before it was plowed under.

[SL_Solow]

AB; I am curious.  From your original post, I inferred that you had not played or seen the course as you asked if anyone was familiar with it.  Several posts later, having viewed a routing, you comment on possible changes/improvements?  Are these suggestions based on a routing map and aerials?  Do you think that is sufficient?

[Jaeger Kovich]

I thought Deepdale was a pretty good golf course, but had too many sharp doglegs to be considered really great. The greens are fun because of the speed and steepness, but I wouldn't really want to copy or reproduce any of them.

The greatest thing about Deepdale is the proximity to NYC. Also, that you are not likely to find it busy, ever... The pro staff as well.

[Philip Caccamise]

ABMack,

Dick Wilson's body of work is pretty impressive.

He may be one of the most underrated architects in modern times.

Architecturally, Deepdale may be on the low end of his totem pole.

Agreed... the proof is at NCR, where he built two excellent golf courses on the same piece of property that could not be any more divergent (for Ohio) in style.

Deepdale is a ballbuster. Only got to play it once so my memory is poor but I remember feeling next to helpless on some of the greens.

[abmack]

AB; I am curious.  From your original post, I inferred that you had not played or seen the course as you asked if anyone was familiar with it.  Several posts later, having viewed a routing, you comment on possible changes/improvements?  Are these suggestions based on a routing map and aerials?  Do you think that is sufficient?

No. I am familiar with the course although the purpose of this post is to hear what other people think of the course and whether anyone has any thoughts on how it might improve

[Patrick_Mucci]

ABMack,

The greens at Deepdale were never intended to putt at high speeds.

Recognizing the problem, they already softened the 8th green.

Unfortunately, the greens provide the bulk of the character for the course, ergo softening them would diminish the architectural value of the course.

Slowing them down to manageable speeds would seem to be the more prudent path to take.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

How good is the Dick Wilson golf course at. Meadowbrook.   My New York City club is considering moving their spring golf outing there from The Creek.

I have not played the course at Meadowbrook but don't want to sell it short vis a vis the Creek sight unseen.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Malcolm,

It's very good.

Unfortunately, some of the original holes were lost when the club sold them to a developer, and one or two of the originals are now used as practice areas.

Still, it's a very unique course with some of the largest greens I've ever seen.

As to The Creek, it's very special

[ChipOat]

Patrick:  Relative to the difficulty of the property, is Deepdale really second-rate?  You can't make chicken salad out of................

Tom D.: 13 is about right; 4-5 of the the younger Links members (i.e. < 70) joined Deepdale when they knew the end was coming.

Malcolm:  The Creek (Golden Era) and Meadowbrook (not) couldn't be more different.  INO, Wilson's 1950's-era courses are more similar to, but better than, RTJ's work.  The USGA would have been well served to have DW as their "Open doctor", also IMO.

The Creek has subtle architecture, some great views and Golden Era roots.  There is nothing subtle about Meadowbrook.  Most non-GCA guys would prefer it to The Creek.  M'brook is almost as quiet as Deepdale - their members are only away for part of each summer.

[Jeff Schley]

Not much recent discussion regarding Deepdale. Played there for the first time last month. 2 things stood out.

• The greens were like a trampoline in not holding approaches which combined with the false fronts, made it very difficult to hit greens. It's primary defense I thought.
• At one point in the round, I saw the crew using one of the rolling machines back and forth on the green.  I asked our host how often do you guys roll your greens. He said everyday!  I was shocked as I don't recall seeing or hearing a course rolling their greens regularly, much less everyday.

What are people's thoughts on courses rolling greens even semi regularly? I really liked the course and terrain had some character, the greens ended up being the highlight. A solid 7 IMO.

EDIT:  BTW I absolutely loved the showers!  Same head as Friars, but about 3 or more inches in diameter and without the huge PSI, very nice. 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Not much recent discussion regarding Deepdale. Played there for the first time last month. 2 things stood out.

• The greens were like a trampoline in not holding approaches which combined with the false fronts, made it very difficult to hit greens. It's primary defense I thought.
• At one point in the round, I saw the crew using one of the rolling machines back and forth on the green.  I asked our host how often do you guys roll your greens. He said everyday!  I was shocked as I don't recall seeing or hearing a course rolling their greens regularly, much less everyday.

What are people's thoughts on courses rolling greens even semi regularly? I really liked the course and terrain had some character, the greens ended up being the highlight. A solid 7 IMO.

EDIT:  BTW I absolutely loved the showers!  Same head as Friars, but about 3 or more inches in diameter and without the huge PSI, very nice.

I think that you would be surprised how often clubs roll greens, specifically the higher end courses. Most roll every day & even double roll for special events & weekends.

[John Challenger]

Stay with The Creek which is extraordinary. Very little architectural variety to the holes at Meadowbrook.