[Peter Pallotta]

So, based on the thoughts of proponents of this idea, I have to conclude:

1. that (as per my recent thread) there is indeed NO EXCUSE for an average courses being built today, since apparently all architects are always free -- and in fact are encouraged -- to find/create classic holes like the Eden, Short, Redan, Biarritz, Plateau, Double Plateau, Alps, Valley, Hog's Back, Road, Bottle, Cape, Leven, Punch Bowl, and the Knoll on WHATEVER site he/she has available, with no exceptions; and

2. that (in direct opposition to sentiments expressed thousands of times on here over the years), golf course architecture can be OBJECTIVELY judged and experienced, and that if one simply and consistently plugs this length and that angle and these principles into an equation, a golf course of the quality of Lido will necessarily be produced.

That's great - thanks. It takes all the messy greys, all the HUMAN-NESS, all the magic out of the whole process and any nuance completely out of our discussions about that process. It becomes simply: THIS is what characterizes a great golf course, and THAT is how one goes about creating it.

Okay, understood now. I can now go to the Golf Digest Top 100 list and know for CERTAIN what courses are objectively the greatest ever produced. I should get on my horse and start knocking off those top 100 right away, starting from the top and working my way down. It is very important to me to be able to agree with everybody else.

Joshua Crane - paging Joshua Crane. It's Mike Keiser and 2015 calling -- we want your scientific formula back.      

[Sven Nilsen]

Peter:

Have you played Old Mac?

Sven

[Jud_T]

Sven,

Old Mac will inevitably be the comparison for the Lido.  It's my favorite Doak.  I believe Tom and others are loathe to give it the full credit it's due however, exactly because it isn't 100% a creation from scratch.  It's virtually impossible for anyone, myself included, to play it and enjoy it simply for the golf that's in the ground and rank it in relation to other courses on this basis.  Furthermore, perhaps the reason I elevate it above courses like Pac Dunes and Ballyneal is exactly because I'm a template fan, have had the good fortune to play a number of MacRaynor & Banks courses and there's something comforting about them and I know they "work".  This is something the Lido will have going from the get-go and bolsters Pat's point of view.  It's a bit silly to either trash the concept or jump for joy until 1) it actually gets built and 2) we see the final product.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

Old Mac will inevitably be the comparison for the Lido.  It's my favorite Doak.  I believe Tom and others are loathe to give it the full credit it's due however, exactly because it isn't 100% a creation from scratch.  It's virtually impossible for anyone, myself included, to play it and enjoy it simply for the golf that's in the ground and rank it in relation to other courses on this basis.  Furthermore, perhaps the reason I elevate it above courses like Pac Dunes and Ballyneal is exactly because I'm a template fan, have had the good fortune to play a number of MacRaynor & Banks courses and there's something comforting about them and I know they "work".  This is something the Lido will have going from the get-go and bolsters Pat's point of view.  It's a bit silly to either trash the concept or jump for joy until 1) it actually gets built and 2) we see the final product.

Jud:

I agree with your last sentiment.  

I would also point out that Old Mac sits next to three very good if not great golf courses (certainly not average) that were not built based on any kind of formula (except, perhaps, where some of those holes borrow from the principles espoused by CBM).  

I think Peter's smart enough to realize his last post was overreaching.  

No one is saying that building the Lido should be the hard and fast rule for how courses are constructed (especially if you consider that even Mac and Raynor built different versions of the various template holes listed above).  

We're just saying there's merit in the idea of reconstructing this particular design.

Sven

[John Kavanaugh]

Copying Lido inch by inch, hole by hole is not the same as Old Mac. Who doesn't love template holes?  Play with enough GCAers and you might think every hole is a template.

My opinion on the desire by some for an exact copy of a defunct course stems from the long detailed hatred many on this site have for living working architects.  It has even been suggested by an officer of a Raynor organization that money can be saved by eliminating living architects. This whole exercise speaks to our post a link culture. Copy/paste something into a space where it gets hits and claim it as your own.

Truth is, anyone who can afford Streamsong has the connections to play one of many of these template relics. A reclaimed Lido will expose no new golfers to this model. It is not "golf for the people". In some ways it is a selfish grab by those who want to intellectualize the game rather than play it.  

[Jim Nugent]

Great idea but niche course for a niche market.

I very much disagree -- so long as the course turns out great.  If it does, I think it will enjoy wide success.  The 'niche' aspect of it may enhance that success, and make it even more popular among 'retail' golfers.

[Sven Nilsen]

John:

That one made me laugh.  So subtle.

There's a vast difference between simply trying to boost the number of your twitter followers and borrowing from the past to enhance the conversation today.

I'm sorry that you can't see the difference.

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

Truth is, anyone who can afford Streamsong has the connections to play one of many of these template relics. A reclaimed Lido will expose no new golfers to this model. It is not "golf for the people". In some ways it is a selfish grab by those who want to intellectualize the game rather than play it.  

Experience tells me otherwise.

There are thousands of people a month without the means or connections getting their only taste of the CBM world, even if they don't know it.

Sven

[John Kavanaugh]

Sven,

Where is this CBM utopia for the common man?  Are you talking about the Cape, Redan or Short found at the local muni?

[BCowan]

John,

    Most people who go see great musicians/bands go there to enjoy themselves and the music, they have appreciation for the music.  90+% of them don't know what key the song is in, the chord progressions, and the scales being used.  The same applies for streamsong and Bandon.  What is really great is when a well studied individual and someone who just enjoys playing cool golf courses, both like the same course.  Most of the ones who are in the 2nd category pay the bills. 

[Sven Nilsen]

John:

Yesterday, two of those common men were named Scott and Bill.  They drove close to four hours to take advantage of rates they can't get in the high season.

Neither one of them had ever heard of CBM, let alone NGLA, Chicago GC, Sleepy Hollow or Mid Ocean.  

They played an Eden, a Hogsback, a Short, a Long, a Biarritz and a Punchbowl, along with a number of other template inspired holes.  

They had a blast.

Sven

[Adam_Messix]

I agree with Pat on this one.  Given that the terrain was almost totally created, I would think that Lido is one of the few courses where you could pull off a pretty good and accurate facsimile, especially if they have access to the model that was created or can figure out the contouring off of it.   Given the size of the site, I think they could probably get the prevailing winds pretty close too.  My feeling is, why not try it?

Reading Peter's earlier thread and his post here got me thinking about a talk Brian Silva made a PGA architectural symposium about 15 years ago where he had that there were only 29 truly original golf holes in the World.  This may not be the place to say it, but bad golf courses are very possible today due to a combination of lack of capital, severe property, and/or environmental constraints. 

[John Kavanaugh]

John:

Yesterday, two of those common men were named Scott and Bill.  They drove close to four hours to take advantage of rates they can't get in the high season.

Neither one of them had ever heard of CBM, let alone NGLA, Chicago GC, Sleepy Hollow or Mid Ocean.  

They played an Eden, a Hogsback, a Short, a Long, a Biarritz and a Punchbowl, along with a number of other template inspired holes.  

They had a blast.

Sven

I hope for their sake that you didn't educate them. I can't tell you the times a caddie educates me about either the architecture or history of a course and I play dumb because it is the best strategy to shut him up.  So, with caddie, travel and fees they spent a weeks take home pay for a day of golf. That's dedication.

[Sven Nilsen]

John:

Yesterday, two of those common men were named Scott and Bill.  They drove close to four hours to take advantage of rates they can't get in the high season.

Neither one of them had ever heard of CBM, let alone NGLA, Chicago GC, Sleepy Hollow or Mid Ocean.  

They played an Eden, a Hogsback, a Short, a Long, a Biarritz and a Punchbowl, along with a number of other template inspired holes.  

They had a blast.

Sven

I hope for their sake that you didn't educate them. I can't tell you the times a caddie educates me about either the architecture or history of a course and I play dumb because it is the best strategy to shut him up.  So, with caddie, travel and fees they spent a weeks take home pay for a day of golf. That's dedication.

They were pushing their own carts.

I answered the questions they asked me.

I think they learned a little bit.

They were good guys, I enjoyed talking to them.

Not everyone is a misanthrope.

Sven

[Mike Schott]

Great idea but niche course for a niche market.

I very much disagree -- so long as the course turns out great.  If it does, I think it will enjoy wide success.  The 'niche' aspect of it may enhance that success, and make it even more popular among 'retail' golfers.

Good point but it will be popular because it's a great course, not because it's the ghost of Lido.

[Craig Sweet]

Old Mac is Bandon...That is all you need to know...What percentage of the people playing Old Mac have even a small iota of knowledge that it's a "replica" course? My guess is 75% have little clue at all. 

[Mark Steffey]

i'm not sure we are right in calling old mac a 'replica' course.  it's not like the scorecard has for #1, "this is a hole inspired by the double plateau at yeaman's hall" and then #2 reads "this is a hole inspired by the biarritz at yale" as we find at a true REPLICA course such as tour 18 in houston where they in fact give credit and highlight their first hole being 18 at harbour town and then 2 being bay hill, etc.

in that case every course raynor did after his first should be referred to as replica.  heck then even his first since he learned from cbm, no?

in my simple view old mac was inspired by, not a replica.   though i may be wrong.....

[Philip Caccamise]

i'm not sure we are right in calling old mac a 'replica' course.  it's not like the scorecard has for #1, "this is a hole inspired by the double plateau at yeaman's hall" and then #2 reads "this is a hole inspired by the biarritz at yale" as we find at a true REPLICA course such as tour 18 in houston where they in fact give credit and highlight their first hole being 18 at harbour town and then 2 being bay hill, etc.

in that case every course raynor did after his first should be referred to as replica.  heck then even his first since he learned from cbm, no?

in my simple view old mac was inspired by, not a replica.   though i may be wrong.....

I believe most, if not all (including the Tour 18's in Dallas and Houston), of the 'replica' courses have gone to the "inspired by" or a "simulation of" line for legal reasons... does anybody have an answer on the legality of an exact copy of a golf hole? As Jason noted, exact copy of words is plagiarism (illegal), but a replica of the Mona Lisa is just art.

[Brent Hutto]

There are approximately 1,000 times as many people interested in playing a replica/inspired-by of "#2 at Bay Hill" than "#2 at the Lido" or even "the double plateau at Yeamans Hall". I live less than two hours from Yeamans and would probably have to ask around for quite a while this Sunday to find one of the other members of my club who have played there or even heard of Seth Raynor in connection.

[Mark Steffey]

I believe most, if not all (including the Tour 18's in Dallas and Houston), of the 'replica' courses have gone to the "inspired by" or a "simulation of" line for legal reasons... does anybody have an answer on the legality of an exact copy of a golf hole? As Jason noted, exact copy of words is plagiarism (illegal), but a replica of the Mona Lisa is just art.

well i believe the art falls under the music here...  when i was learning how to play the guitar i would practice on other peoples songs.  artist i assume train the same way (or paint random nudes  ).  so that is accepted.

one isn't going to learn how to write by copying word for word a doris kerns goodwin manuscript.

---and i agree with brent. 
lido may very well be fund to play but very few will head there because of "oh my god, it's Lido!!!".  SS should have a lido themed bar and have every item from there they can get their hands on and hang articles about the original so people who visit can learn about what they just saw.  but at the end of the day the course will succeed or fail based upon it's playability.

---  question.  how can SS go and trademark 'lido' when pieces of the original'ish lido still exists on the spot where it was built and is called lido golf club.  (i can see it on google earth right now)

[DMoriarty]

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&case=/data2/circs/5th/9621102cv0.html

[Tim_Weiman]

Aside from all the arguments presented above, I'm wondering how much documentation actually exists on the NLE Lido.

Does anyone know?

[Rees Milikin]

Aside from all the arguments presented above, I'm wondering how much documentation actually exists on the NLE Lido.

Does anyone know?

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60459.0.html

[Patrick_Mucci]

Peter:

Have you played Old Mac?


Sven,

Forget Old Mac, how about the 17th hole at Pacific Dunes ?

The 4th hole at Hidden Creek ?

Redan's a go-go 😀

[Sven Nilsen]

Peter:

Have you played Old Mac?


Sven,

Forget Old Mac, how about the 17th hole at Pacific Dunes ?

The 4th hole at Hidden Creek ?

Redan's a go-go 😀

Careful Pat.  People are going to accuse us of collaborating.

I alluded to your point in one of my earlier posts.  Perhaps it was too subtle.

Sven

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