[JC Jones]

Incidentally, I'm looking at signing up to do a new project on dead flat land right now.  I suppose I could just beat everyone to the punch and try to replicate the Lido -- apparently nobody owns the copyright -- but that is the furthest thing from my mind.

Tom, that's understandable, but, if the owner/developer instructed you to craft a replica of Lido, I don't see you balking at the opportunity, especially after the splendid job you did at Old Macdonald.

You're not watching very closely, then, because I've pretty much already done just that.

Are you saying you've already turned down the job to do Lido? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

It is interesting from Jason's post how the cognoscenti will deal with this course, when and if it happens.  We may all turn our noses up at Royal Links in Vegas and the Ross tribute course at Boyne, but those are fun courses for the average travelling golfer to play.  I'm guessing with the level of quality that Streamsong and Keiser are known for, that this will be a replica course the likes of which we perhaps haven't seen.  I'm willing to wait to see who's involved and what the final product is before dismissing it prematurely as a mere curiosity.

Jud T,

I would ask the Naysayers:  How did Keiser's concept replica course turn out at Old Macdonald ?

From all I've heard, it's been extremely well received and highly regarded.

Why would anyone expect less at Streamsong ?

[Jud_T]

I guess the issue Pat is that Old Mac was a reimagining of the template holes with a fair amount of creative license to do what fit the land etc. (i.e. the Biarritz). The presumption here is that plans are available to essentially do an exact replica.  Not saying it's a good or bad thing, just that that's the creative question at hand.  Now obviously even if you're doing a very faithful recreation there's still a lot of small details that you need to get right, but the question remains to what level are exact plans available and how closely are they going to adhere to them.  According to quotes from George they're pretty specific, but Sven's posts seem to imply otherwise, vis-a-vis grades, depths of bunkers, heights of greens etc.  It will be a fascinating process to follow if nothing else, and potentially a very interesting addition to what Streamsong already has.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I recall a quote (where I can't remember) from Mike Keiser saying that George told him if he wanted to build Lido he could give him plans to the 1/4 inch.

I think Sven was referring to CBM's remarks that they never followed his plans to a "T" (fairway movement, etc.) when the course was originally built. 

[Don Mahaffey]

So, do you hire a guy who doesn't build to plan, to build a course to a plan, and use the plan even though it wasn't followed to build the the original course?

I think it a good question.

[Grant Saunders]

One aspect to the measure of success (whatever your definition is: financial, rankings, minimum 200 separate Golf Club Atlas threads in 4 weeks) that I haven't seen discussed much in terms of the Lido concept is the fact that is being planned as part of an existing facility. There is already a current client base that will still play streamsong with or without Lido. The inclusion of it may increase the number of people visiting the resort but is hard to measure what impact it really will have.

It is a much safer experiment to recreate or reimagine the course in this scenario than it would be to do it as a standalone project but as the same time that makes it tougher to gauge how well it will really be received.

[Don Mahaffey]

Received? Its Kaiser on sand with big money behind him, it'll be received like the savior of golf.
That's not the question.
The question is: will it be any good? Will it measure up to the legend of Lido?

[JC Jones]

Received? Its Kaiser on sand with big money behind him, it'll be received like the savior of golf.
That's not the question.
The question is: will it be any good? Will it measure up to the legend of Lido?

Will your questions be tabled if you feel confident in the choice of architect?

For example, if Doak had not turned the job down and you were to find out he was designing it, would you feel better?  Certainly you'd still have some questions but would you feel more confident than you do now?

[Grant Saunders]

Received? Its Kaiser on sand with big money behind him, it'll be received like the savior of golf.
That's not the question.
The question is: will it be any good? Will it measure up to the legend of Lido?

Will it be any good? Probably very good. Unfortunately I don't think your going to find anyone who will  have played them both and can offer up confirmation as to whether the new version is as good as the old.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Don,

That is a good question. CBM said that towards the end of the fill the company didn't carry out the *contours exactly, but on the other hand he praised Seth Raynor for all his exacting work making sure the hills and hummocks and undulations would all fit in as well as possible to the plan.

Who knows how inexact it really was. As George said, CB wasn't into raising any of his courses above, or even to the same level, as NGLA.

*George:
"one of the main reasons CBM was disappointed with the end result of the Lido course and it contractors was that so much money was spent on the landfill operation many of the finite features that were supposed to go onto the course were eliminated ....  most notable the ideas he had about the various (different) ripples the fairways were supposed to get.

[Don Mahaffey]

Received? Its Kaiser on sand with big money behind him, it'll be received like the savior of golf.
That's not the question.
The question is: will it be any good? Will it measure up to the legend of Lido?

Will your questions be tabled if you feel confident in the choice of architect?

For example, if Doak had not turned the job down and you were to find out he was designing it, would you feel better?  Certainly you'd still have some questions but would you feel more confident than you do now?

The more I think about it I'm not a fan of the idea no matter the architect. I like Mike DeVries a lot, I'm friends with Tom Doak and Andy Staples, and Nuzzo and I are close to BFFs. But I'm not a fan of this idea no matter the chosen one and I think I'll probably puke enduring the ramp up marketing phase.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I think I'll probably puke enduring the ramp up marketing phase.

Can't disagree with that. One good thing though, it does keep one's head from exploding.  

[Sven Nilsen]

I think Sven was referring to CBM's remarks that they never followed his plans to a "T" (fairway movement, etc.) when the course was originally built. 

Jim:

I think Jud is referring to my post in the other thread where I talked about getting things right in three dimensions.  No matter how detailed the plans, there are still going to be nuances that are missed that mean it won't be exact.  That doesn't necessarily mean it won't be good.

Sven

[Bryan Lewis]

I didn't understand the Lido thread at all. I still don't. The whole idea seems lifeless to me, worse so because it is posited by supposed true lovers of the form and in the presumed cause of resurrecting greatness. The notion that replicating (i.e. these specifications and those angles and that flow) can and will add up to -- as in a precise and objective mathematical problem -- a definite and definable answer/solution (in this case to great architecture) seems to me to missing the entire point of gca as a living, responsive and ever unique art and craft. Such an idea (replication) is a sign not of an art and craft vibrantly reaching towards its zenith, but of one in serious decline -- moribund and too self conscious, self absorbed, and self reflective, such that what's in our heads (ideas, and our own pet theories) is ultimately more exciting to us than what's in the ground (new design expressions).  

Peter

Peter,

I understand what you're trying to say, but it is very ironic given that the artist of Lido, CB Macdonald, made a career out of making replicas of golf holes.  We nearly worship the designs of his and Seth Raynor.

Personally I think it would be fascinating to get to "see" this course that no longer exists, even if it is somewhat an interpretation.

With today's technology you could duplicate every hump and hollow of the Old Course in a flat sandy location.  I'd love to see someone try just to see how it turns out, not that you could ever duplicate the experience of being there.  It would probably make for good golf at least!

For what it's worth.

Bryan

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jud, Don, et., al.,

Here's what I don't understand.

The replica or template holes CBM/SR crafted have passed the ultimate test, the test of time.

Eden, Short, Redan, Biarritz, Plateau, Double Plateau, Alps, Valley, Hog's Back, Road, Bottle, Cape, Leven, Punch Bowl, Knoll,  etc., etc., are all pretty much revered.

They've been accepted, for over a century, as holes with intrinsic architectural merit, so why the objection to replicating a course that contains a good number of them ?

I haven't heard anyone complain about Mountain Lake, Piping Rock, The Creek, Yale and Fishers Island, so why all the complaints about resurrecting Lido ?

What's the objection.

Surely, it can't be an issue about the quality of the individual holes.

Surely, it can't be an issue about the abundance of quality holes within one course ?

So, what's the objection ?

Mike Keiser has proven to be a visionary.
A creator of great golf courses, so what's the beef with him replicating Lido, a course full of the classic CBM/SR template holes ?

What's the objection to him resurrecting a spectacular NLE ?

[BCowan]

I also don't understand the critics.  It's not like Amen corner, TOC, or an island green are being copied.  This is playing tribute to what seems to be a very important historical course.  I'm wondering if Pete Dye would be a good person to consult.   The average retail golfer is going to love the uniqueness of this.  A small percentage of folks may even look into golf course arch as a result.  I great band imo can do an occasional cover of well know band, and play a non commercial (hit) cover.  That is what I feel Lido is. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

BCowan,

It would be interesting to know how many CBM/SR courses the objectors have played ?

And, which ones.

[Jason Thurman]

The merits of replicas seem to vary a lot based on context and the medium of the art being replicated. Forged paintings are basically worthless. Gus Van Sant's shot-for-shot remake of "Psycho" was widely panned. Replicating a work of literature is a crime. On the other hand, as others have mentioned, song covers are widely accepted. In fact, most works of music are either created on paper or transcribed to it with the deliberate purpose of facilitating replication.

It seems to me that the reason we're okay with some forms of replica art and not others has to do with what we perceive to be the inspired moment of creation. In a painting, the creation occurs when paint goes to canvas. Copying someone else's painting is perceived as uninspired even when the replica is nearly exact. The same could be said for a movie once it's committed to film, although we do accept some remakes of movies that reimagine the original script in a different context.

Likewise, with cover songs, we see value in reimagining something that was created in written form. The divine moment of creativity was when the notes were "written." The performance of those notes is simply part of the tradition through which that initial act of creativity is passed on and given life, either through a faithful rendition or through a reimagining that deviates from the original in a way that offers a different perspective. Bruce Springsteen wrote a pretty good song when he penned "Atlantic City," and he performed it okay too. When Levon Helm reinterpreted it, though, that pretty good song became a great one. In the case of music, we're able to appreciate Springsteen's creative act as well as Helm's.

The question to me, then, is what we consider to be the divinely inspired act of creation as it pertains to golf course architecture. Was it the drawing of the initial plans for the Lido course that most fosters our admiration? Or was it the physical building of the course? If it's the former, then a faithful replica that brings the illustrated vision back to life will be seen as a monumental moment. If the latter, then the same faithful recreation will just be seen as a knockoff.

Then again, the worst thing that can happen is probably that we get a new course at a year round destination that is enjoyable to play. Maybe there's an opportunity cost in this world where so few courses are being built. But even as skeptical as I am about the project, and as corny as I think it sounds sometimes, I still find more reasons to be intrigued by the idea than reasons to be opposed to it.

[jeffwarne]

I also don't understand the critics.  It's not like Amen corner, TOC, or an island green are being copied.  This is playing tribute to what seems to be a very important historical course.  I'm wondering if Pete Dye would be a good person to consult.   The average retail golfer is going to love the uniqueness of this.  A small percentage of folks may even look into golf course arch as a result.  I great band imo can do an occasional cover of well know band, and play a non commercial (hit) cover.  That is what I feel Lido is. 

I actually got nervous when I played the replica Augusta #12 and #13 copies at Golden Ocala.
What could possibly be the downside of a replica historical tribute course at a resort with three other original great courses-especially if they use a piece of comparatively average land.

How can one worship templates and not embrace a copy of an extinct course?

[Joe_Tucholski]

Here's my thoughts on the topic.  People want honesty and they don't want to be lied to.  We don't like to be deceived and we especially don't like to find out we were deceived after the fact.

When Don said the marketing for a Lido course would make him puke I figure it's because he envisions the marketing being something along the lines of "step back in history and play the greatest course ever built."  That line bothers me because I'm not going to step back in time and I won't be playing the NLE Lido.

When people play the various tribute/replica courses they know they aren't playing the original courses but they are trying to create an experience that resembles the original.  Jason talks about how forgeries are worth next to nothing.  I didn't watch the TED talk yet but I figure the reason forged paintings aren't worth anything is it's a lie.  Someone is trying to dupe the viewer into believing they are looking at the original.  I have prints hanging in my house and they bring me happiness.  They aren't the original but I can't afford the originals and I understand they are prints.  Prints are like the tribute/replica courses to me.

Similarly there is mention to music.  Covers are a little different.  The new artist is taking inspiration from the previous song and adds their feelings and personal touches.  The previous post linked on page 2 of this thread Tom talks about how he dislikes architects who create replicas, but then goes on to say he doesn't mind someone saying they design in the style of Raynor (as long as they really try to take inspiration from Raynor and not just some marketing scheme).  I figure Old MacDonald is kind of like a cover, as are template holes which are generally accepted if they are done well.

I say if someone wants to recreate the Lido go for it but hopefully they will be honest about what they are really doing.

[Sean_A]

How can one worship templates and not embrace a copy of an extinct course?

Jeff

From my perspective, I don't think a replica course adds anything to the resort that any other great design wouldn't.  The issue is the quality of the course, not the design MO.  I think it is a bit of a gamble to ask a name archie to build a replica at the expense of his own ideas and concepts...which is what separates archies from each other.  The question then becomes why take the gamble when seemingly two well received courses are already in the ground...why not continue with what is working?  The marketing hype of a Lido replica will be short lived and have a limited market appeal...and it may be at the expense of a truly wonderful original design.  

Ciao

[Joe Hancock]

Maybe a different line of thought, maybe not; The opportunity to, hopefully, be involved with building El Boqueron some day holds several incentives. For one, there likely isn't many people around who have had the privilege of building an Alister MacKenzie design. What an honor that would be! Secondly, and maybe more applicable to Lido is the fact that an architect (or shaper, or student, or historian, you pick) would learn a lot from building something of greatness that came from an architectural giant. That, in my mind would make them a better architect(or ..)...and who doesn't want more of that?

If the Lido project goes, and they want enthusiastic participants....sign me up! I'd be better for it, at the very least.

Joe

[BCowan]

Joe T,

    Golf courses and Art paintings are two totally different artistic endeavors.  One is actually played on the created art (Golf).  People don't pay $225 to walk the golf holes at Streamsong.  People interact with the Art.  I was at a presentation for a Raynor course last spring, the two members told us that the membership didn't know who Raynor was, nor cared.  They still loved the course.  People who go to Streamsong are going to play world class Golf, and Streamsong has a reputation for bringing that to the table.  90% of the people there could care less about a Lido, as long as the course is interesting and in great condition. 

[Craig Sweet]

I was shagging balls at the local muni yesterday and while talking to the boys I mentioned the replica Lido. They were very confused. They were like, "you talking' about that Boz Skaggs song?"   

Lido...Viagra for the libido of the GCA wonks.....

Good luck with the marketing of such an endeavor.

[Mike Schott]

I was shagging balls at the local muni yesterday and while talking to the boys I mentioned the replica Lido. They were very confused. They were like, "you talking' about that Boz Skaggs song?"   

Lido...Viagra for the libido of the GCA wonks.....

Good luck with the marketing of such an endeavor.

This. Great idea but niche course for a niche market. However, an exact duplicate of Augusta National with the correct topography would have the potential to be successful. Golfers would flock to it from all over the world even with a $500.00 greens fee.

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