[Tom_Doak]

replicating something that has long been lost (Lido, the original Biarritz course, etc) is a worthwhile cause b/c they haven't existed in most of our lifetimes, but carry significant historical & architectural importance.

Only if it's a worthy replica.  Otherwise you are just stealing the brand of an old course, and demeaning it at the same time.

The question is whether you can build a worthy replica of what was one of the greatest courses in America, without the site that Adam describes above.

[Tom_Doak]

Incidentally, I'm looking at signing up to do a new project on dead flat land right now.  I suppose I could just beat everyone to the punch and try to replicate the Lido -- apparently nobody owns the copyright -- but that is the furthest thing from my mind.

Also, FYI, the Japanese tried to build a replica of St. Andrews in the 1970's.  On hilly land!  And somewhere in Thailand there is a replica of the back nine at Augusta National.  Except it's dead flat!

[jeffwarne]

For those concerned about 'replicating" the wind on Long island for the Lido.

When they the 2010 US mid Am was held at The Bridge (on Long Island) on one day the field was hitting driver, three wood to the par 4 6th, followed by driver, L wedge to the par 5 7th.
The other day the wind blew the complete opposite, rendering the par 5 7th unreachable, and the 6th to driver short iron.
In the playoff for stroke play on the third day, players were laying up with their second shots on the par 4 first, after hitting driver LW in one of the rounds before.

So which wind are they supposed to replicate?
and if they didn't, who would know? and what exactly would they base that on. and would it even matter.
the wind definitely blows at Streamsong
Tough to look at a picture or an aeriel and tell the wind direction on a given day in 1930

.

[Adam_Messix]

From my experiences on Long Island, and I think it's mentioned in the Confidential Guide as well, that the prevailing winds tend to be from 180 degree opposite directions.  I've played with members of NGLA who have described certain winds, like a due east or due west wind as "unusual."  Winds are a finicky thing for sure, I've had wood left for my approach into 9 at Shinnecock and next day come in with a wedge... ditto 10 at Seminole.  As I said in my earlier post, given the size of the property and a probable clean slate, they can probably route the course in such a way to replicate the prevailing wind on the South Shore. 

If Streamsong Black is going to be a replica of Lido, it will be a very interesting project to see the thought processes and how the design and construction process plays out. 

[Tom_Doak]

From my experiences on Long Island, and I think it's mentioned in the Confidential Guide as well, that the prevailing winds tend to be from 180 degree opposite directions.   . . .

If Streamsong Black is going to be a replica of Lido, it will be a very interesting project to see the thought processes and how the design and construction process plays out. 

It is true in a lot of places that the two most common winds are from opposite directions.  At Barnbougle or Muirfield the wind normally blows from the west, but 20% of the time it blows from the east, and the shot values change completely.  At Crystal Downs the wind blows from the north when the weather is nice, but it starts coming from the south when a storm is headed across the lake.

One note:  Streamsong Black is Gil Hanse's course, and I don't think that is the one where they are thinking of Lido.  The speculation is all about course #4, whenever that is to happen.

[Adam_Messix]

Tom--

That's what I understand too in regards in Streamsong Black and a potential course 4.  My comments are relative to comment I read elsewhere that Gil's Black Course being a Lido replica.  

[Don Mahaffey]

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,1604.0.html

Replica golf course discussion from 10 years ago

[Tom_Doak]

Tom--

That's what I understand too in regards in Streamsong Black and a potential course 4.  My comments are relative to comments earlier in this thread that Gil's Black Course being a Lido replica. 

Where is that post?  I must be a lousy reader.

[Peter Pallotta]

Incidentally, I'm looking at signing up to do a new project on dead flat land right now.  I suppose I could just beat everyone to the punch and try to replicate the Lido -- apparently nobody owns the copyright -- but that is the furthest thing from my mind.

Of course it's the furthest thing from your mind - you're a living, breathing architect at the height of his creative powers, not a robot programmed to replicate someone's else 'signature' like an auto-pen!

I'd be worried about the architect who WOULD take on the 'task' of replicating Lido. Besides the fact that it wouldn't work (either as a golf course or as a marketing tool -- such that said architect would be forever pegged a two-time loser), ten minutes after it was done some writer/poster would be gleefully suggesting that the 24th century world of the Star Trek "Holodeck" had arrived -- and the architect would then spend the rest of his days at Sci Fi conventions with geeks in green masks droning on about 'the future possibilities' of design.

I wouldn't want that for you, Tom, and I don't think you would be very happy. I think you should stick to building original designs, despite how hard they are to market and how poorly the may end up being received.

Peter

[Tom_Doak]

This was an interesting post from the older thread:

George Bahto
Guest

Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2003, 06:56:45 PM »

For what it’s worth, just a word about replica courses.

At the “advanced” age of 70 (hah) I had the opportunity to design and built a course based on architecture of the Golden Age. I never dreamed of ever doing that - I had never even given a thought about doing such a thing.

For a novice, it was a most satisfying experience - a chance to demonstrate what I had researched over the past few years, more important, a chance to honor an architect who had been in the shadows, nearly unknown, for so many years.

To see your one-dimensional drawing talk a life of its own was an incredible feeling.

That said - I would never want to do a replica course again!

I love restoration work.

I would be interested to know if another novice, arm-chair architects, if given an opportunity, would turn such an opportunity down .......   all things being equal - I doubt it

[Tom_Doak]

ten minutes after it was done some writer/poster would be gleefully suggesting that the 24th century world of the Star Trek "Holodeck" had arrived -- and the architect would then spend the rest of his days at Sci Fi conventions with geeks in green masks droning on about 'the future possibilities' of design.

They wouldn't wait until it was done.  Just yesterday I fielded a call from a potential client [not the one referenced earlier] who wanted to know if I could build another reversible course for them.  I'm not even half done trying to figure out if I can build the first one!

Likewise, the Lido concept is being discussed to death before anyone has committed to making the attempt.  I hope the trial balloons work out better for the golfers than for political constituents.

[Adam_Messix]

Tom--

That's what I understand too in regards in Streamsong Black and a potential course 4.  My comments are relative to comments earlier in this thread that Gil's Black Course being a Lido replica. 

Where is that post?  I must be a lousy reader.

Tom--

I've corrected myself.  The comment was posted on another site. 

As an aside, I find it amazing that you guys can go back and forth between threads and not get stuff mixed up. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Lido had quite a reputation in its day. Accounts of it show that it could test the best, especially in the wind ('par' actually had some meaning), but wasn't impossible for the rest.

I've asked myself these two questions: 1 - If Lido had made it through the myriad of issues that forced it to close, would it still be relevant today? And 2 - If Lido had made it to 2015 but had been so neglected that nothing short of a major restoration would bring it back, would I (or anyone else who appreciates the restoration of top notch courses) think it would be worth restoring?

My answer was yes to both questions. The first -  because Lido was right up there with the best of its day, and those same courses are still in the top 10 or 20 in America. The second - I think that a neglected course with that kind of potential would be worth restoring (I don't think I'd be the only one thinking that).

So I guess that leaves me squarely in the camp that believes a 'new' Lido would be relevant today, and a worthwhile endeavor.

 

[Daniel Jones]

My city is home to Golden Ocala and its somewhat infamous band of replica holes. When I travel for golf and mention I'm from Ocala, the response is often "Golden Ocala...that's the place with all of the replica holes, right?" It's never... "Golden Ocala...I hear that's a great golf course."

Perhaps the Lido can be both a replica and great, but getting past statement #1 seems like a tough gig.

[Howard Riefs]

Incidentally, I'm looking at signing up to do a new project on dead flat land right now.  I suppose I could just beat everyone to the punch and try to replicate the Lido -- apparently nobody owns the copyright -- but that is the furthest thing from my mind.

The Mosaic attorneys are glad to hear that.

FWIW:

https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-lido-at-86481901.html

Same day filing:

https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-86481872.html

[John Kavanaugh]

In the few years I have left to travel for golf I will be lucky if five important courses are built. A replica course will not be one of them.

[Tim Martin]

My city is home to Golden Ocala and its somewhat infamous band of replica holes. When I travel for golf and mention I'm from Ocala, the response is often "Golden Ocala...that's the place with all of the replica holes, right?" It's never... "Golden Ocala...I hear that's a great golf course."

Perhaps the Lido can be both a replica and great, but getting past statement #1 seems like a tough gig.

Daniel-Golden Ocala replicates holes from a number of different courses while Lido would be the entire golf course. Additionally those holes come from golf courses that are all still operational while Lido has not been open for 75 years. I'm with Jim that I would love to see the project come to fruition.

[Don Mahaffey]

Augusta may be in existence, but for 99.999999 of the golfing population all they ever have is the ability to gush over the course one week a year.
If ever there should be a replica course, that should be it. the reason it will not happen, is because there is something the replica will be compared to.
With Lido, they can basically do whatever they want and still call it the Lido, in Florida.

[Tom_Doak]

The Mosaic attorneys are glad to hear that.

FWIW:

https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-lido-at-86481901.html

I must have lost my mind.  How do you trademark something you are replicating, that's 100 years old?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Don--

I have been rooting for a reborn Lido to be built for many years now.  It's the one classic course that was much talked about that is totally gone.  It would be neat to see it recreated and frankly I was hoping that it was going to be build on the site that became Old MacDonald at Bandon. 

There are a couple of things that have popped to my mind that I don't think have been discussed here that need to be mentioned.

1.  If it's going to be at Streamsong, then it will obviously not be a seaside site like the original.  That means the winds that are prevalent on the south shore of Long Island will not be the same in South Central Florida.  They may attempt to route it in a direction where the winds will be comparable.  From a setting standpoint though, the only the thing they cannot replicate is the setting of the Biarritz with the ocean to the right.  Admittedly, the original Lido was site was totally created from a swamp, so it's not like you have recreate some great piece of property.....  although if it does happen, I look forward to seeing how they pull the Alps off. 

Adam,

There are prevailing winds at Streamsong, just like there are prevailing winds on the South Shore of Long Island.
I don't see wind direction as a design impediment

2.  Being as it's in Florida, the grasses will be different.  If memory serves, the grass used in the rough at the original Lido was something pretty unique and was extremely difficult to play from and of course, the fairways in Florida will be Bermuda.  They have been able to achieve firm ground conditions at Streamsong so they may be able to come up with a similar type firmness that we see at NGLA. 

Firmness is dependent upon Mother Nature.
In 50 years of play at NGLA, it's been F&F and it's been soft with Mother Nature determing most outcomes.

3.  I know a person whose father played the original Lido and the comment made about it that was forwarded to me was that, "it was a very hard course."  Can the resort player handle a really tough course and will they be willing to play it again?  It's too early to tell whether Streamsong will work as well as Bandon has in the long haul, but it looks like the clientele there is different than say at Pinehurst, Pebble Beach or the Greenbrier and is the avid player that appears more at Bandon. 

I don't know that I'd call either the Red or the Blue, "Pushovers"
As to difficulty, that's usually a function of the intended user.
Pine Valley certainly caters to a different golfer than "The Breakers" in Palm Beach.
Tee selection also plays a big factor in difficulty.
Anyone who's played the back tees at Pine Valley or The Medalist can attest to that. 

4.  Lido is the one course that I think could be replicated for the most part because the original was basically built on a clean slate.  The original site was a swamp and they had to create it.  The legend of Peter Lees first look at the site tells it all.  Recreating ANGC, NGLA, or even GCGC in whole would be nearly impossible or grossly expensive because you'd have to totally create the landforms and ANGC and NGLA both have significant hills that would need to be created or positioned perfectly.  Lido was totally created from nothing so it would seem that it would be easier to create than the other courses mentioned.  Outside of the Alps, do those responsible have any idea how much movement the course had and is the original model that appeared in The Evangelist of Golf still exist to give them something to work off of? 

Lido was, and is today, a generally flat site.
Hole replication would not be challenged by the terrain.

Of course, it's a replica so a perfect duplicate is not what Mr. Keiser is after.  I was hoping that they could find a site in the Northeast to pull this off, something close to sea preferably, but sites large enough to do it are very few and farther between today and are uber expensive.  I've always wanted to see a "Channel" Hole and a "Raynor's Prize Dogleg" (although Dr. G tells me 6 at Southampton GC is one)  I hope they can pull it off! 

I'm sure Mr. Mucci will give me an earful about my thoughts.

You rang ?

I think we're pretty much in agreement.

The key is:  Will it be a physical replica or a concept replica.  Like you, I'd opt for the physical replica.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Incidentally, I'm looking at signing up to do a new project on dead flat land right now.  I suppose I could just beat everyone to the punch and try to replicate the Lido -- apparently nobody owns the copyright -- but that is the furthest thing from my mind.

Tom, that's understandable, but, if the owner/developer instructed you to craft a replica of Lido, I don't see you balking at the opportunity, especially after the splendid job you did at Old Macdonald.

Also, FYI, the Japanese tried to build a replica of St. Andrews in the 1970's.  On hilly land!  And somewhere in Thailand there is a replica of the back nine at Augusta National.  Except it's dead flat!

[Tom_Doak]

Incidentally, I'm looking at signing up to do a new project on dead flat land right now.  I suppose I could just beat everyone to the punch and try to replicate the Lido -- apparently nobody owns the copyright -- but that is the furthest thing from my mind.

Tom, that's understandable, but, if the owner/developer instructed you to craft a replica of Lido, I don't see you balking at the opportunity, especially after the splendid job you did at Old Macdonald.

You're not watching very closely, then, because I've pretty much already done just that.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom, I know that my eyes aren't keen, and now, my reading comprehension must also be going because I didn't catch the gist of your last post.

Please elaborate.

Thanks

[Jud_T]

It is interesting from Jason's post how the cognoscenti will deal with this course, when and if it happens.  We may all turn our noses up at Royal Links in Vegas and the Ross tribute course at Boyne, but those are fun courses for the average travelling golfer to play.  I'm guessing with the level of quality that Streamsong and Keiser are known for, that this will be a replica course the likes of which we perhaps haven't seen.  I'm willing to wait to see who's involved and what the final product is before dismissing it prematurely as a mere curiosity.

[John Kavanaugh]

Is Keiser involved at Streamsong?  That would be good news.

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