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Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Replicas
« on: February 15, 2015, 09:57:29 AM »
With all the talk about developing a replica of The Lido, I'm curious to learn of replica architecture or art that has been successful, or positively received.
I did a replica architecture search and found entire cities in China replicated after European cities. Austrian mountain villages, Dutch towns complete with wooden shoes and windmills. Iconic American buildings part of the Shanghai skyline.

I can't imagine replica art would be all that well received. Although I have to admit I wonder how Mcconaughey would play Brando's part in a remake of the original Godfather, but who would do Coppola's job?  

While not exactly enthralled with the idea of replica golf courses I am asking a serious question. Are there good examples of replica art/architecture out there?  And if the Lido is replicated, and a commercial success, what next? ANGC, TOC?
Will the developers be viewed as visionaries or rip off artists?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 10:02:46 AM by Don Mahaffey »

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replicas
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2015, 10:03:27 AM »
Don,
I don't feel like a replica of ANGC would work as well, since everyone playing it would know that the real thing is out there. Lido seems like a unique situation where you are being let behind the curtain of this legend, almost folk lore.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replicas
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2015, 10:15:21 AM »
Surely turning a phosphate mine into an uber successful golf resort, Lido replica or otherwise, would be considered visionary.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replicas
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2015, 10:18:15 AM »
Surely turning a phosphate mine into an uber successful golf resort, Lido replica or otherwise, would be considered visionary.

And so would creating gondola rides in the Nevada desert.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replicas
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2015, 10:24:10 AM »
Surely turning a phosphate mine into an uber successful golf resort, Lido replica or otherwise, would be considered visionary.
Eric, I like the Streamsong courses a lot, but that is not really the question is it? If it is, then is it construction prowess that makes a visionary?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 10:30:18 AM by Don Mahaffey »

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replicas
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2015, 10:25:45 AM »
Surely turning a phosphate mine into an uber successful golf resort, Lido replica or otherwise, would be considered visionary.
Eric, I like the Streamsong courses a lot, but that is not really the question is it? If it is, then is it construction prowess that makes a visionary?

Well, we know that good spelling does not make a visionary.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replicas
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2015, 10:26:52 AM »
My computer is a shitty speler

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Replicas
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2015, 10:39:30 AM »
Don, there's a TED Talk on this subject that I watched a few weeks ago. You can find it here, in transcript and in video form: http://www.ted.com/talks/paul_bloom_the_origins_of_pleasure/transcript?language=en. It's a short watch and an even shorter read.

The talk explores how people's tastes in everything from art to fast food are influenced by pedigree and originality. The first thing it discusses is the value of original paintings vs. forgings, and how people will spend hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars more on an original than on a virtually identical forged painting. There's no real conclusion drawn for why, but the idea offered by Bloom is that we value things with a specific history that we can associate with an act of creativity.

As I watched it, I kept thinking about things like the potential Lido project, as well as the many biases that show themselves in the tastes espoused in this forum and the golf world in general.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Replicas
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2015, 10:41:16 AM »
I didn't understand the Lido thread at all. I still don't. The whole idea seems lifeless to me, worse so because it is posited by supposed true lovers of the form and in the presumed cause of resurrecting greatness. The notion that replicating (i.e. these specifications and those angles and that flow) can and will add up to -- as in a precise and objective mathematical problem -- a definite and definable answer/solution (in this case to great architecture) seems to me to missing the entire point of gca as a living, responsive and ever unique art and craft. Such an idea (replication) is a sign not of an art and craft vibrantly reaching towards its zenith, but of one in serious decline -- moribund and too self conscious, self absorbed, and self reflective, such that what's in our heads (ideas, and our own pet theories) is ultimately more exciting to us than what's in the ground (new design expressions).  

Peter
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 11:06:28 AM by PPallotta »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Replicas
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2015, 10:45:36 AM »
Don,

30, 40 and 50 years ago I bet you could name every make, model and year of every car you saw.

Today, it would seem that it's far more difficult to identify make, model and year as the cars all seem like replicas of one another.
Perhaps that has to do with fuel efficiency and aerodynamics, but cars seem to be more like replicas than originals.

Beauty queen contestants, TV's, Playboy Bunnies all seem like replicas to some.
A great many art works are copied in print form

Didn't Shakespeare state that "imitation was the sincerest form of flattery"

If a golf hole, building, painting or sculpture possesses intrinsic qualities that are widely/greatly admired, why would replication be a negative ?

I think Eric's point is very valid

Replicating TOC would be relatively easy, as would replicating any relatively flat course.
Replicating ANGC or NGLA would be far more difficult due to their unique terrain.

Forgetting the legal aspects for a second, pretend that I found land identical to the land at Augusta just outside of Charlotte, NC and built an almost exact replica of ANGC.

1.     Do you think it would be a successful resort course
2.     Do you think it would be a successful public course
3.     Do you think it would be a successful private course

Same question on NGLA, located near the bay outside of Atlantic City.

Your question is similar to one I've asked myself for over 20 years.

Why didn't someone try to replicate GCGC ?

Given that the bunker design mandates unique drainage, i've been puzzled by that for decades.


Peter Pallotta

Re: Replicas
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2015, 10:51:55 AM »
Jason - I think that point you offer via Bloom, i.e. "that we value things with a specific history that we can associate with an act of creativity" is very astute.

Peter

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replicas
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2015, 10:52:06 AM »
Don,
IMHO a replica in golf course architecture is like putting a Jennifer Anniston hair style on Rosie Odonnell.  It might be the same but it ain't the same.
There are just too many variables as you know.  Whether it be wind direction, feet above sea level, drop from tee to green or fairway and it just continues.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 10:54:34 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replicas
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2015, 11:06:42 AM »
Don,

I would consider music to be an art form.  The greatest hits are copied all the time.  Sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. 

Bret

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replicas
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2015, 11:15:52 AM »
Don, there's a TED Talk on this subject that I watched a few weeks ago. You can find it here, in transcript and in video form: http://www.ted.com/talks/paul_bloom_the_origins_of_pleasure/transcript?language=en. It's a short watch and an even shorter read.

The talk explores how people's tastes in everything from art to fast food are influenced by pedigree and originality. The first thing it discusses is the value of original paintings vs. forgings, and how people will spend hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars more on an original than on a virtually identical forged painting. There's no real conclusion drawn for why, but the idea offered by Bloom is that we value things with a specific history that we can associate with an act of creativity.

As I watched it, I kept thinking about things like the potential Lido project, as well as the many biases that show themselves in the tastes espoused in this forum and the golf world in general.

Jason, I'm a dedicated TEDster.
NPR's TED radio hour is the #1 podcast in my library. There is a recent podcast titled "Brand over Brain" that I found very interesting. Bloom's talk is incorporated in the hour long "What is Original?" from June 2014, It ties in nicely with some of the themes from "brand over Brain".
Another favorite is "the Source of Creativity".

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replicas
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2015, 11:18:22 AM »
Surely turning a phosphate mine into an uber successful golf resort, Lido replica or otherwise, would be considered visionary.

And so would creating gondola rides in the Nevada desert.

So was Walt Disney a visionary or just another copy cat?

Rees Milikin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replicas
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2015, 11:20:21 AM »
IMO building a replica of something that currently exist (ANGC, Pine Valley, CPC, etc) is a worthless cause b/c it actually exists, while replicating something that has long been lost (Lido, the original Biarritz course, etc) is a worthwhile cause b/c they haven't existed in most of our lifetimes, but carry significant historical & architectural importance.

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replicas
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2015, 11:25:31 AM »
Surely turning a phosphate mine into an uber successful golf resort, Lido replica or otherwise, would be considered visionary.

And so would creating gondola rides in the Nevada desert.

So was Walt Disney a visionary or just another copy cat?

Wasn't he both?
Success changes people

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replicas
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2015, 11:27:13 AM »
I didn't understand the Lido thread at all. I still don't.

I would have thought the point of the Lido thread would have been fairly obvious, an exploration of the original course to give us a bit more context in discussing the current thoughts of building a new version (whether a replica or an homage).  What has surprised me about the entire conversation is that there has been little willingness to discuss the actual golf course.  Not its condition, the state of its founders interest or the type of facility the Lido was, but the actual golf holes, the shot values, the challenges and the type of golf it represented.

What I think you meant is that you don't understand why the original should be recreated.  Judging by the mixed opinions offered during the last couple of weeks, its an opinion that is shared by some, but not all.  What I find extremely interesting is that the entire project has been derided without anyone really knowing the specifics of the plans.  We don't know if it is going to be an exact replication, or if the architect chosen (and there already is a name guy involved with the project) is going to do his best to create a modern version of the course on the land he is given to work with.

At this point, I know enough about the proposed project to think that the involved parties are worthy of our trust.  And I also think the golf that was played on Lido would make for very interesting golf today, whether it was a to scale reproduction or just a vague reference to the original.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replicas
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2015, 11:29:44 AM »
Surely turning a phosphate mine into an uber successful golf resort, Lido replica or otherwise, would be considered visionary.

And so would creating gondola rides in the Nevada desert.

So was Walt Disney a visionary or just another copy cat?

Wasn't he both?
Success changes people

I would agree he was both. And I agree wrt success. I do not think a Lido stand alone project would be ideal, but in this situation, at this time, with these people behind it, the Lido is a brilliant play.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replicas
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2015, 11:31:48 AM »
 :-X
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 12:16:44 PM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replicas
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2015, 11:32:15 AM »
I didn't understand the Lido thread at all. I still don't.

I would have thought the point of the Lido thread would have been fairly obvious, an exploration of the original course to give us a bit more context in discussing the current thoughts of building a new version (whether a replica or an homage).  What has surprised me about the entire conversation is that there has been little willingness to discuss the actual golf course.  Not its condition, the state of its founders interest or the type of facility the Lido was, but the actual golf holes, the shot values, the challenges and the type of golf it represented.

What I think you meant is that you don't understand why the original should be recreated.  Judging by the mixed opinions offered during the last couple of weeks, its an opinion that is shared by some, but not all.  What I find extremely interesting is that the entire project has been derided without anyone really knowing the specifics of the plans.  We don't know if it is going to be an exact replication, or if the architect chosen (and there already is a name guy involved with the project) is going to do his best to create a modern version of the course on the land he is given to work with.

At this point, I know enough about the proposed project to think that the involved parties are worthy of our trust.  And I also think the golf that was played on Lido would make for very interesting golf today, whether it was a to scale reproduction or just a vague reference to the original.

Sven

Sven, are you involved in the project?

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replicas
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2015, 11:33:09 AM »
No.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replicas
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2015, 11:36:00 AM »
Copy/paste historians endorsing copy/paste architecture.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replicas
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2015, 11:37:15 AM »
Never heard of a drive by sniper architect, but I'm sure they exist.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replicas
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2015, 12:51:32 PM »
Don--

I have been rooting for a reborn Lido to be built for many years now.  It's the one classic course that was much talked about that is totally gone.  It would be neat to see it recreated and frankly I was hoping that it was going to be build on the site that became Old MacDonald at Bandon. 

There are a couple of things that have popped to my mind that I don't think have been discussed here that need to be mentioned.

1.  If it's going to be at Streamsong, then it will obviously not be a seaside site like the original.  That means the winds that are prevalent on the south shore of Long Island will not be the same in South Central Florida.  They may attempt to route it in a direction where the winds will be comparable.  From a setting standpoint though, the only the thing they cannot replicate is the setting of the Biarritz with the ocean to the right.  Admittedly, the original Lido was site was totally created from a swamp, so it's not like you have recreate some great piece of property.....  although if it does happen, I look forward to seeing how they pull the Alps off. 

2.  Being as it's in Florida, the grasses will be different.  If memory serves, the grass used in the rough at the original Lido was something pretty unique and was extremely difficult to play from and of course, the fairways in Florida will be Bermuda.  They have been able to achieve firm ground conditions at Streamsong so they may be able to come up with a similar type firmness that we see at NGLA. 

3.  I know a person whose father played the original Lido and the comment made about it that was forwarded to me was that, "it was a very hard course."  Can the resort player handle a really tough course and will they be willing to play it again?  It's too early to tell whether Streamsong will work as well as Bandon has in the long haul, but it looks like the clientele there is different than say at Pinehurst, Pebble Beach or the Greenbrier and is the avid player that appears more at Bandon.   

4.  Lido is the one course that I think could be replicated for the most part because the original was basically built on a clean slate.  The original site was a swamp and they had to create it.  The legend of Peter Lees first look at the site tells it all.  Recreating ANGC, NGLA, or even GCGC in whole would be nearly impossible or grossly expensive because you'd have to totally create the landforms and ANGC and NGLA both have significant hills that would need to be created or positioned perfectly.  Lido was totally created from nothing so it would seem that it would be easier to create than the other courses mentioned.  Outside of the Alps, do those responsible have any idea how much movement the course had and is the original model that appeared in The Evangelist of Golf still exist to give them something to work off of? 

Of course, it's a replica so a perfect duplicate is not what Mr. Keiser is after.  I was hoping that they could find a site in the Northeast to pull this off, something close to sea preferably, but sites large enough to do it are very few and farther between today and are uber expensive.  I've always wanted to see a "Channel" Hole and a "Raynor's Prize Dogleg" (although Dr. G tells me 6 at Southampton GC is one)  I hope they can pull it off! 

I'm sure Mr. Mucci will give me an earful about my thoughts. ;D

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