Was George Thomas right?

[Garland Bayley]

GJ

I don't think you take me literally enough !! My point was that in the old days they didn't have putting, it was all the same. Why not stick to that ethos, it has served the game well.

Niall

Define putting? When we play to temporaries in the fairway in the winter, we still putt. The area of the green is defined by the distance you feel comfortable putting from.

Besides, it they weren't putting, why was there a debate about removing six greens from courses so there would be less putting.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Garland,
Please post the the debate about removing six holes.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

As TD pointed out earlier, Thomas' proposal really undervalues the short game, I think that's especially so in an era when good scoring must have certainly relied on deft little chips in the days before putting greens were anything like we know today.
                                      
I don't think golf would even exist today if at anytime in its history it allowed a player who could reach the green of a very long hole in two shots, and then four putt his way to a four, to earn a tie with another player who needs three shots to get near the green and then holes his fourth, for a four.    

C'mon, it's ridiculous.  

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,
Please post the the debate about removing six holes.
...

Unfortunately I do a lot of reading, but am not very good at taking notes. I have come across it in my reading at least twice.

 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Thanks anyway.

[Garland Bayley]

Thanks anyway.

I felt bad to be such a disappointment to you, so I scanned my bookcase and got lucky. I am relatively certain that the first place I read this is in Playing the Like, a book of Bernard Darwin essays. He unfortunately does not name the friend who was promoting the idea, but Bernard agreed with the idea.

It was relatively easy in this case to get lucky, because the title of the essay is Twelve Holes.

[Garland Bayley]

Thanks anyway.

I felt bad to be such a disappointment to you, so I scanned my bookcase and got lucky. I am relatively certain that the first place I read this is in Playing the Like, a book of Bernard Darwin essays. He unfortunately does not name the friend who was promoting the idea, but Bernard agreed with the idea.

It was relatively easy in this case to get lucky, because the title of the essay is Twelve Holes.

To quote from the essay, "putting has come gradually to usurp a far larger and more important place in the game than of old."

Darwin further writes, "the wooden club through the green remains, I venture to assert, the finest and most enjoyable of all."

Concerning interesting three shot holes, he writes, "the first two strokes are part of a process of gaining the best position to play the third; the player, according to his powers has got to think and decide how he shall tackle the problem."

[Jim_Kennedy]

Darwin and Thomas made stratospheric contributions to 'golf'.

The idea, that he who attains the green in the lowest number of strokes should then be rewarded for doing so with a diminished value for the work that lies ahead, sounds more like Bingo, Bango, Bongo than golf.   

[archie_struthers]

I think its a wonderful question, Mark !  . It  made me immediately read more about George Thomas  , and it was so good!

The answer for me is that it impacts the game all around the green , and would be quite boring compared to what we play everyday . We would see more and more robotic golfers , and the value of  the short game would dramatically be reduced . Nicklaus might have won thirty majors and how about Watson and heavens , Moe Norman ?





It was ironic that the playoff at Riviera allowed the two,guys who,got trapped by the Captain advance . But that's golf !  Had putting been devalued , maybe the two protagonists wouldn't have practiced their flops as much . I'm guessing Crenshaw doesn't win two Masters, and the conversation about Nicklaus vs Tiger as the greatest ever would be moot.

[Mark_Fine]

Controversial as it is, it does make you think how the game would be played differently and how courses would be designed differently.  It is always good to think out of the box once in a while and Thomas was doing just that.

One thing is sure and it will be hard for even this group on GCA to debate, it would encourage golfers to play the correct tees and would speed up play 😊

I think we should all play a match or two with this scoring system, see how differently you play the course, and then decide how silly The Captain really was 😉

[JESII]

To make a 15 foot putt, the player has a 1.18% margin of error.

To hit a shot to 15 feet from 200 yards, the player has a 2.5% margin of error.

To hit the ideal 10 yard section of fairway 300 yards away, the player has a 1.67% margin of error.

How do you calculate those figures?

Just width divided by length...just to make the point that the margin of error in putting is smaller, and more consequential than when hitting the ball.

4.25" / 2 / 180" = .0118
5yd / 200yd = .025
5yd / 300yd = .0167

I'm sure there's a more scientific way to do it which is fine...but the question of consequences is interesting. Miss a 3 foot putt and you're adding an entire stroke to your score. Miss the fairway or green and you're not necessarily doing that. Just ask Paul Casey how far his tee shot on #10 in the playoff was from where he was aiming...

[Garland Bayley]

...
One thing is sure and it will be hard for even this group on GCA to debate, it would encourage golfers to play the correct tees and would speed up play 😊
...

I have no idea how you could possibly draw that conclusion, so I guess I would debate it.

[Jim_Kennedy]

...
One thing is sure and it will be hard for even this group on GCA to debate, it would encourage golfers to play the correct tees and would speed up play 😊
...

I have no idea how you could possibly draw that conclusion, so I guess I would debate it.

If  'correct' is 'shorter' then sure, it makes it almost a necessity if a player wants to get on the green in regulation of some of the longer holes  under Thomas' version of 'par'.   

...and yes, the Captain got a little silly and went adrift with this one.  

[Garland Bayley]

IMO people are going to play the tees they play no matter how you count the putts.