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DCronan

New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« on: February 12, 2015, 08:26:57 PM »
$13.2 million for the golf course?

$24.5 million for the golf complex?

On land they already own?

Are they building 100 foot levees?

http://www.nola.com/golf/index.ssf/2015/02/city_park_championship_golf_co_1.html#incart_m-rpt-2
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 08:30:25 PM by D Cronan »

Carl Rogers

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2015, 08:31:09 PM »
went to school across the street at Tulane
glad to see this, a real opportunity to grow the game in the city
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Joe Hancock

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2015, 08:45:13 PM »
Good for golf, maybe. But, that's money that likely will never return the investment to the city/ taxpayers. I wonder how the needy feel about it?

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tom_Doak

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2015, 08:59:03 PM »
Last month I walked the Audubon Park course in the city.  It was wonderful ... 4500 yards of fun, busy with golfers and non-golfers on the jogging trail etc.  I've been planning to put it in the front of The Confidential Guide (Volume 2) because it was so nice to see a city that had its priorities right.

And now the same city is working on a $13m course with the PGA Tour involved?

Greg Chambers

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2015, 09:07:19 PM »
Boondoggle.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2015, 10:29:24 PM »
It's a tragedy for a couple of reasons.   First, the city is broke, where is that kind of money coming from?   Second, the City Park courses were basic and maintenance was minimal, but they were well routed around the bayous and fun to play. 

RJ_Daley

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2015, 12:54:23 AM »
Sounds like a 'moral obligation bond'.  With those numbers, you'd think it will cost a heck of a lot more than a round at the old City Park courses to meet the tax exempt interest payments to bond buyers.  Of course it is NOLA, and what are the odds somebody gets convicted in some phase of this as it goes along?   ::)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Carl Rogers

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2015, 06:27:31 AM »
It's a tragedy for a couple of reasons.   First, the city is broke, where is that kind of money coming from?   Second, the City Park courses were basic and maintenance was minimal, but they were well routed around the bayous and fun to play. 
Back in prehistoric times when I was there, the greens were borderline playable. 
However, you might be right ... it could be over building .... but let's be optimistic.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Charlie Ray

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2015, 09:56:54 AM »
I would think that most of us were surprised by the recent thread concerning the lack of courses being built in urban areas.  I have fond memories of the two courses lost by Katrina and am glad that golf, albeit sprinkled with corruption, delays, and other typical government inefficiency,  is part of the NOLA City Park masterplan.  But it is upsetting that this project will be destroyed on GCA.com because of its affiliation with Rees.  Yes, 13 million is too much, but at least we are getting a new course.  What was the cost of CommonGround? 

Don Mahaffey

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2015, 10:04:52 AM »
Charlie,
I haven't seen anything negative about Rees on this thread? Where is he getting destroyed?
But why is PGA Tour design services involved? For a muni course?

I know some of the construction bidders and just the logistics to sand cap the entire course looked to be very, very costly.

I have no issue with a local government supporting golf. But when I start reading about potential tour events and revenue projections, then I know the same old bait is being used to create expensive work.  

My primary beef with a project like this is it is not being built for the people who are paying for it. The idea that it will become some sort of tourist attraction is laughable. Maybe some tourists who visit NOLA will play there, but they are not going there for the golf.

IMO, muni golf should be developed for the local citizenry, not as some chamber of commerce project for the 1%ers in town.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 10:11:09 AM by Don Mahaffey »

Charlie Ray

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2015, 10:19:16 AM »
The opportunity for Tour events and positive revenue reflections are what appeals to city officials, thus they are near necessities in making a sales pitch for a multimillion dollar public project.  
I was in the wrong about the Rees Jones aspect;  it hasn't been bashed on this thread ... yet.
Can the course be built without sand capping?  The site is 2-5 feet above sea level.  The previous courses were nearly unplayable after an inch or two of rain for a few days.  
It is my understanding that many changes (reducing the cost) have been made to the original plan that was introduced 6 years ago.  $300,000 design fee does seem reasonable.

"IMO, muni golf should be developed for the local citizenry, not as some chamber of commerce project for the 1%ers in town"  Don, I totally agree.

The remodeling of Audubon Park course wasn't too cheap;  around $9 million if my memory is correct.

Also, $8.9 million is supposedly coming from private money.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 10:27:05 AM by Charlie Ray »

Jason Thurman

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2015, 10:25:49 AM »
Don, I generally agree. At the same time, there's a major lack of public golf of any decent quality in New Orleans post-Katrina. Hopefully reclamation of the City Park courses will be an amenity for the local community, and affordable for locals as well.

I have some sympathy for the decision-makers in the city who are driving this. They're not golf developers, but they're trying to rebuild another part of the city that was destroyed by the hurricane. I never know what to take seriously when I see municipal golf development budgets, but hopefully the golf industry advisers that they're working with aren't pushing them a bunch of crap that they don't need. Of course, if the $13 million budget is accurate, then it's likely they're getting screwed a bit or doing some screwing themselves.

Either way, once the work is done it'll be one more blow struck against the last real argument keeping me from moving to the city.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2015, 10:49:22 AM »
Always interested in the quick charges of boondoggle....

As to funding, it says "The $24.5 price tag will be funded by three sources. About $9.5 million will come from the state's capital outlay budget, $6 million from FEMA and $8.9 from the Bayou District Foundation." It also mentions some private funds coming in, probably to fund the Bayou District portion. So, of that 24.5M, some doesn't need to be paid back (I think( as it was recovery funds from FEMA and the state.  I believe a resort course in New Orleans could fund the public portion of $8.9M.  I could be wrong, but it sounds reasonable enough.

As to construction cost, we don't know the specs.  We do know sand capping which has to be a few million.  We know it is at sea level, meaning they probably had to grade a lot to control water flow.  We can assume there are some strict tree preservation regulations and maybe other neighborhood mitigation.  A typical problem on urban courses is routing those trucks for sand hauling.  Limited routes and hours in the city may raise the cost/time of hauling that sand in.

We don't know what the time limits, damages for delay, etc., are. but in city contracts, they can be severe.  Add in a rainy climate and low lying ground, and the contractors may have bid a few million dollars just for risk in the bid.

Lastly, with the PGA Tour involved, they do set a high standard for every phase of the project.  I know Colbert Hills was going to be a PGA Tour course, until their minimum standards raised the cost from everything from clubhouse, to maintenance building, to grass selection (for playability, even though it was a hard choice to maintain in KS).  Their standard maintenance building plan was going to cost about $2M, and we ended up building a pretty nice one for half a million or so, for example.

I know of a few municipal remodels getting to cost over $10-15M.  funny, but even as the economy has suffered, the cost of construction still rises, usually blamed (until recently) on oil prices affecting plastics manufacturing, trucking mileage charges, etc.  It does seem to make the economics of golf even tougher.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Tanner

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2015, 01:44:54 PM »
I'm not knowledgable about golf course construction costs, but I know a golfer in New Orleans who was devasted by the loss of City Park's courses after Katrina. As a public school teacher in the city, those courses provided him with affordable, accessible options for playing the game.

 The addition of the new course to the reopened North course won't provide a 1:1 replacement for what existed pre-Katrina, but it'll be an improvement to the current situation. After all the accounting is done, I hope the benefit to New Orlean's golfing citizens and visitors will be worth it.

Just think, it'll be a new, public-access course opening in a metropolitan area.There haven't been many of those lately.   
Life's too short to waste on bad golf courses or bad wine.

Paul Jones

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2015, 02:27:02 PM »
Last month I walked the Audubon Park course in the city.  It was wonderful ... 4500 yards of fun, busy with golfers and non-golfers on the jogging trail etc.  I've been planning to put it in the front of The Confidential Guide (Volume 2) because it was so nice to see a city that had its priorities right.

And now the same city is working on a $13m course with the PGA Tour involved?

I played Audubon Park a couple of times and really enjoy it. I wish they would have followed the same model for Audubon Park course.  They already have a "Championship" course with TPC of Louisiana. This does not sound like a course for the general public.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Bill_McBride

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2015, 02:45:16 PM »
I'm not knowledgable about golf course construction costs, but I know a golfer in New Orleans who was devasted by the loss of City Park's courses after Katrina. As a public school teacher in the city, those courses provided him with affordable, accessible options for playing the game.

 The addition of the new course to the reopened North course won't provide a 1:1 replacement for what existed pre-Katrina, but it'll be an improvement to the current situation. After all the accounting is done, I hope the benefit to New Orlean's golfing citizens and visitors will be worth it.

Just think, it'll be a new, public-access course opening in a metropolitan area.There haven't been many of those lately.   

What do you think the green fees will go to from the existing ~ $25?

Malcolm Mckinnon

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2015, 11:20:23 PM »
Well, my wife is an Uptown New Orleans native and a Sacred Heart girl. Have spent way too much time around this town. Food is excellent but the golf is not so great.

I hope that Rees Jones is a magician. The old City Park nines were profoundly dog tracks of the first order. However, the old Audubon Park course was equally insipid until it's recent renovations.

Like Tom Doak I have wandered around the Audubon Park redesignned "executive course" and seen vistas which include both golf and Tulane and Loyola Universities and thought that it was cool. Yet, I have seen many better "in town" views.. Not only in Scotland but even my own course in Princeton, NJ.

Count me in as as skeptical regarding this project.




Scott Weersing

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2017, 09:26:42 AM »
The course now has a name, Bayou Oaks Golf Course at City Park.


It is set to open Spring of 2017


http://neworleanscitypark.com/new-golf-course-information


I guess we can add this to the list of possible best new courses for 2017.

Tom Ferrell

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2017, 11:29:21 AM »
Well, my wife is an Uptown New Orleans native and a Sacred Heart girl. Have spent way too much time around this town. Food is excellent but the golf is not so great.


My wife is an Uptown New Orleans native as well and a Domincan girl, so we visit frequently.  I echo Tom's statements on Audubon Park.  As someone who runs the track AND plays the course every chance I get, it's almost like a little vestige of the Scottish ethos of golf as part of a larger recreational and social community.  And the golf is very good, well designed and presented.


I visited City Park in December to check out the new course and hit some balls at the existing "Tin Cup"-like range.  The new course is huge in scale, the abject opposite of what currently exists across the street.  My question is...where are the golfers going to come from?  The current City Park golfers are *not* going to pay high green fees to suffer on a "championship" course.  The course can't viably poach anyone from Audubon.  So you're now going for the so-called high-end golfer.  But those folks are already at Metairie, NOCC and English Turn.  Will people who otherwise might go to TPC migrate over the City Park?  Possibly, more so if it does indeed become host of the Zurich Classic.


But it sure does look out of place against the current City Park landscape.

Brent Gremillion

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2017, 08:51:07 PM »
As a New Orleanean, I'll give a little bit of local knowledge and input. Pre Katrina , City Park had four courses. North, South, East and West. The North was the only course restored after the storm and it is still not worth playing.
The West was the original "championship" layout. The South was the short course and mostly played by the older members and locals. The East teed off on the opposite side of the starter house and worked its way out and back of the, yep, East end of the property.
The new course will combine both the East and West tracks into one.
The South course will remain a green space.
Now for the why. It's the closest golf course to where tourists tend to flock. The TPC is not close to downtown, the convention center, or anything a visitor would want to see except cypress trees. The course is garbage. The politicians in New Orleans hate the fact that the tournament is played in Jefferson Parish rather than in Orleans Parish. They wanted to build a "gem" in the city so that the tour would potentially move there; and, visitors can get to the course by going straight down Esplanade Ave or Canal Street if Downtown or easy access off the interstate between the airport and downtown. Perfect location.
Lastly, New Orleans City Park is the largest city park in the country so it is well equipped to offer parking and accommodate large numbers of people should the PGA choose to move.
I hope they make the green fees within reason for locals.
I'll do a write up about Audubon soon. I love that place. Total examination of your iron game!

Andy Stamm

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2017, 07:33:36 PM »
A bit off topic, but City Park is very far from the largest city park in the country. Eagle Creek Park (with 36 holes including a fairly interesting Dye 18 that's been broken up) in Indianapolis is roughly 4x bigger. I've heard that about City Park several times and never understood it at all.

Brent Gremillion

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2017, 08:03:03 PM »
A bit off topic, but City Park is very far from the largest city park in the country. Eagle Creek Park (with 36 holes including a fairly interesting Dye 18 that's been broken up) in Indianapolis is roughly 4x bigger. I've heard that about City Park several times and never understood it at all.
My apologies. Must be local myth and folklore carried forward from childhood.
The site would still work well for a tour event. Same surrounding area is used for Jazz Fest parking and VooDoo Fest is held in City Park.

Scott Weersing

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2017, 02:42:42 PM »
So the course is now open.


I read this, "The $26 million course was designed by noted golf course architect Rees Jones, and features 46 bunkers along its 18-holes. "
[/size]
http://www.wwl.com/articles/fore-new-city-park-bayou-oaks-golf-course-opens-today
[/size]
[/size]Does 26 million seem high? Is that the cost for building a golf course?

PCCraig

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2017, 02:44:34 PM »
So the course is now open.


I read this, "The $26 million course was designed by noted golf course architect Rees Jones, and features 46 bunkers along its 18-holes. "

http://www.wwl.com/articles/fore-new-city-park-bayou-oaks-golf-course-opens-today

Does 26 million seem high? Is that the cost for building a golf course?


All I can think of is that they had to spend an incredible amount on drainage, including sandcapping?
H.P.S.

Paul Jones

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Re: New Orleans City Park Course has broken ground
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2017, 08:37:46 AM »
The Course is officially open and taking tee time - http://cityparkgolf.com/south_course/


Public Rate - $179
Louisiana Resident - $99


I am going to try to make it out this week to play the course.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com