Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?

[Paul Gray]

I doubt very much that Ivan wishes to be further "educated" about the opinions of people who do not share his fundamental assumptions and who do not see the game as having the same ends as he is pursuing.

If you want golf to be a feat of strength and coordination, with the winner being the strongest and fastest golfer with the best swing mechanics the Doak or MacKenzie have very little to offer.

That does somewhat make assumptions about Ivan's wishes. You may of course be right but I'm just throwing it out there since he asked the question in the first place, presumably not with an agenda to tell us all that we are wrong.

[Garland Bayley]

I doubt very much that Ivan wishes to be further "educated" about the opinions of people who do not share his fundamental assumptions and who do not see the game as having the same ends as he is pursuing.

I actually think Ivan knows all this and is just playing devil's advocate.

If you want golf to be a feat of strength and coordination, with the winner being the strongest and fastest golfer with the best swing mechanics the Doak or MacKenzie have very little to offer.

I trust they no longer need to contest The Masters at Augusta National then, and forget about holding the President's Cup at Royal Melbourne anymore.

[Doug Siebert]

Tiny little Par 3's and whatnot squeezed in to tiny parcels of land bounced by swamps or houses are the absolute worst place to introduce a beginner to the game. It teaches them to steer the ball and inculcates a serious degree of fear and second-guessing about whether each shot will lose a ball (or break a window on a house or go into a busy street!).

No, put them out on a couple hundred acres of golf course that hasn't been tricked up with forced carries, penal hazards and all-carry shot requirements. Let their 50-yard-offline bad shots be hopefully recoverable or if not at least make sure they can stay on the property if they open their shoulders up and hit a wild one.

I sometimes wonder what my game would be like if I'd learned on a short tight little course that made me swing with fear instead of freedom.  I'd probably hit it straighter but shorter than I do today.  But I may not have liked the game enough to stick with it long enough to play other courses.

When you play a course that just has little rows of trees to separate fairways, so a wild shot is probably just in another fairway and you can always find a safe line to avoid risking any sort of OB/lost ball/unplayable type penalty it is a very different experience than playing one with houses, protected wetlands, or thick forest lining the fairways.  The only real hazard on the course I learned my first summer was a pond that was maybe 120 or 130 yards to carry.  But it wasn't really a forced carry, as you could tee off at a 30 degree angle to the right if you wanted to play safe.  That's where beginners should learn.

[Ivan Lipko]

Some photos of the courses mentioned in the thread.

I will start with Maderas - my second or may be even first most favorite course in CA (from the ones I was privileged to play). From a purists stand point it must be considered bad GCA (hence the title of the thread). It has a lof of forced carries, and may be for some it is unplayable.

But it is wonderfully firm, wildly beautiful and on some holes it takes your breath away.
It has some diagonal hazards, beautiful contours to the green complexes and is overall a serious challenge. The course record is 63 set by Charley Hoffman (per caddie's words).

Sorry for the photo quality, they were taken using my iPhone. And I am not a great photographer by any means.


This is I guess, a second shot on the 18th hole. I posted it to illustrate how the great green colors and firmness of fairways are not mutually exclusive. You can easily get a 30-40 yard roll on these fairways, which I believe is great for good golf. So the firm stuff shouldnt necessarily look like a concrete parking lot.

IMG_0032 by I.L1986, on Flickr


18th fairway again, just love the colors and the light, bring some sweet memories. BTW, this tree block the right side of the fairway and makes you lay up if you don't hit your first shot to the correct part of the fairway.

IMG_0030 by I.L1986, on Flickr

18th tee-shot. Notice the tree on the right, and the bunker on the left. You either hit to the perfect spot right in between the two, or you are in trouble. Or just lay up with a shorter club from the tee and have a decent three shotter coming. The fairway sweet spot is actually much wider than what it looks like, so this hole also plays visual games with you. Love it

IMG_0028 by I.L1986, on Flickr

The hole #17. A sweet short downhill par 3. I have never played the Royal County Down but his hole makes me think of it.  Wild, natural and beautiful. 3 months from the day of the game I still remember the wild putting surface. Sweet, sweet, sweet.

IMG_0027 by I.L1986, on Flickr

More to follow.

[Ivan Lipko]

Par 5, hole 14 third shot. Uphill and diagonal. You better now your distances and hit it solid.

IMG_0022 by I.L1986, on Flickr

Long par 4 on the back nine, probably # 13. Wide target and a "roll over". You better hit it long, because your second shot is to a well protected green, guarded by water.

IMG_0019 by I.L1986, on Flickr

The second shot, the green is wide and narrow, the water is menacing, there is still some room for conservative play out to the right.

IMG_0020 by I.L1986, on Flickr

This must be hole 8 tee-shot. Again diagonal water and actually the farther right you go, with a slight draw the better. The second and third shots are uphill and the green is well bunkered and tiny, so the closer you get to it the better.

IMG_0013 by I.L1986, on Flickr

Green of the hole 6. Shows you the nature of green complexes on the course.

IMG_0011 by I.L1986, on Flickr

Bunkers on #10. Short hole that makes you think of your tee-shot more than once, especiall if there is some wind. Plays much harder and much longer than the scorecard says.

IMG_0017 by I.L1986, on Flickr

Par4, hole #5. Monster downhill hole, that is conducive to  playing a well controlled draw. The moment it turns into a hook you are done.

IMG_0009 by I.L1986, on Flickr

Lastly, hole #1. I decided to post it for two reasons. First, I like the photo. Secondly, it is another great hole. The fairways is tilted right to left and has a dogleg to the left. If you play too much of  a draw you ball may end up in the creek that bisects the hole.

IMG_0007 by I.L1986, on Flickr

The creek that runs along the left side of the hole, and then turns back to protect the green.

IMG_0006 by I.L1986, on Flickr