Course match up: Saunton East vs. Bude and North Cornwall

[Thomas Dai]

What's the grub like at Bude & North Cornwall? Very fine breakfasts and carvery lunches at Saunton
atb

[Garland Bayley]

What's the grub like at Bude & North Cornwall? Very fine breakfasts and carvery lunches at Saunton
atb

From my statistically significant sample of one lunch at each course, Bude wins hands down.

[Garland Bayley]

SE 10(313 yards) vs B&NC 3(317 yards)

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At Saunton, you see an excessively flat links fairway leading to a nicely perched green with bunkers fronting it, thereby forcing a high percentage of approaches to be aerial.

At Bude, you have a sketchy view of the target landing area that has far more movement in the links fairway, with additional hazards of rough and bunker to consider in the decision making for the tee shot. It also has a perched green with the front entrance narrowed considerably by bunkers, but still leaving open the possibility of a ground attack over uneven links ground.

Saunton also has an added factor of unrecoverable from sea rushes for the odd wild shot, whereas Bude has significant rough, but rough where the ball can be found, and a recovery shot attempted.

B&NC is the clear winner here to me.

All square.

[Ryan Coles]

You dislike Saunton. I get it. But your comments on Saunton are absolute drivel.

Look at your picture of 10th. Does that look like a threatening tee shot in terms of losing a ball? If it does I'm guessing you sleep with the light on.

Do you really think a running shot through the bunkers over uneven ground is the play at Bude? 10th at Saunton has much more interest. The green is very long from front to back and the hole calls for a shot over the front bunker but it has to be a judged running shot to take it up the tier.

Ring the bell Garland. Save us from further punishment of having to read this.

4 Down.

[Garland Bayley]

You dislike Saunton. I get it. But your comments on Saunton are absolute drivel.

Or one could say that the comments from the near scratch man with no sympathy for the average golfer is pure drivel. Tell me that Alister MacKenzie would not consider Saunton East an aberration that should be corrected. He constantly rants in The Spirit of St. Andrews about such golfing experiences created by misguided "scratch men" as being in need of correction.

Look at your picture of 10th. Does that look like a threatening tee shot in terms of losing a ball? If it does I'm guessing you sleep with the light on.

I don't have to look. I lost a ball in the sea rushes on the 10th.

Do you really think a running shot through the bunkers over uneven ground is the play at Bude?

I know the answer is probably yes, but have you played Bude?

10th at Saunton has much more interest. The green is very long from front to back and the hole calls for a shot over the front bunker but it has to be a judged running shot to take it up the tier.

The green at Saunton is no longer than the green at Bude. So what's the advantage? A tier?

Ring the bell Garland. Save us from further punishment of having to read this.

Talk about punishment. It seems a lot of your posts to this website are considered punishingly off base by a lot of people.

4 Down.

Can't see how you come to that conclusion given the sketchy (and inaccurate) information that you provide.

[Garland Bayley]

SE 6(343 yards) vs. B&NC 14(322 yards)

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The yardages on these two holes differ by 20 yards, but the hole at Bude plays uphill so fairly well approximates the yardage at Saunton.

The tee shot at Saunton has a small ditch angling across the fairway at a distance that can be carried easily. It joins a larger ditch down the right side of the fairway. I don’t see either ditch affecting play much, because the first can be carried, and second because as you pick your line on the dogleg left, it will probably turn out to be a line that will not allow any misdirection to reach the larger ditch. Once your drive is in play, you approach a green without much distinction. 

At Bude, the drive is straightforward, but to an undulating uphill fairway. The approach is to a dell green guided by a sign post. If the low handicapper hits it far enough, it would be a straightforward matter to walk a bit forward and get the proper line. For the shorter hitter, getting the proper line would be more difficult, but perhaps his handicap may indicate that having the proper line to bring birdie into play is unnecessary so hitting over the sign post into the gathering dell green site is plenty and fun.

To me Bude wins this hole hands down.

B&NC one up.

[Garland Bayley]

SE 11(349 yards) vs. B&NC 7(346 yards)

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Apparently Sean and I have diametrically opposing views of this hole at Saunton. I found it to be one of the simplest, straightforward, dare I say boring hole on the course. There is one option for a player like me: hit it to the left side giving the corner a wide berth and then hit a pitching wedge in to the green. You have to be highly skilled and pretty long off the tee to make the corner of the field a part of the hole in play.

The hole at Bude makes anyone that can hit it 200 yards decide how much they are going to challenge the narrowing and the hazard. Furthermore, the blind approach is as thoughtfully laid out as the others on the course. In this case it handles the ball that has been hit up the hill without a chance to start dropping steeply so that it may stop quickly. The depth of the green beyond the crest of the hill works very well.

Bude wins this hole for us high handicappers of course.

B&NC two up.

[Ed Tilley]

SE 11(349 yards) vs. B&NC 7(346 yards)

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Apparently Sean and I have diametrically opposing views of this hole at Saunton. I found it to be one of the simplest, straightforward, dare I say boring hole on the course. There is one option for a player like me: hit it to the left side giving the corner a wide berth and then hit a pitching wedge in to the green. You have to be highly skilled and pretty long off the tee to make the corner of the field a part of the hole in play.

The hole at Bude makes anyone that can hit it 200 yards decide how much they are going to challenge the narrowing and the hazard. Furthermore, the blind approach is as thoughtfully laid out as the others on the course. In this case it handles the ball that has been hit up the hill without a chance to start dropping steeply so that it may stop quickly. The depth of the green beyond the crest of the hill works very well.

Bude wins this hole for us high handicappers of course.

B&NC two up.

Garland,

I haven't played Bude so I'm commenting just from the pictures and may therefore be wrong. However, it appears to me that the 7th at Bude actually offers very little in the way of strategic golf. It appears that hitting a big, say 280 yard, drive is simply not an option as there is no fairway at all. You are therefore forced to hit the ball 200 yards off the tee - i.e. you are forced to play the hole in a certain way rather than presented with options. I'm not sure I'd take on the carry at Saunton but at least I could if I wanted to.

[Richard Fisher]

As a Devon-born and Somerset-raised GCA novice, please may I register a slightly different West Country Top Five

1) Westward Ho!
2) St Enedoc
3=) Burnham and Berrow
3=) Saunton East
5) Saunton West

with Broadstone tied at fifth equal if Dorset is included in this West Country cohort. I know that not everybody on GCA feels the love for RND, but I still think it offers a matchless golfing experience, with the stretch from the 3rd to the 11th offering some of the best natural golf in the world, and the whole providing (to me anyway) an unrivalled sense of 'golf in a recreational landscape'. In addition, is there any clubhouse more atmospheric than that at the Ho!? Last time I was there in 2009 I also enjoyed a fabulous pork roll and homemade broccoli soup for, if memory serves, three pounds all in. A distinct preference for RND over Saunton and B&B is a minority view, I fully appreciate, but it's one I shall continue to defend!

At a less elevated level, I have heard good things in the past about both Minehead and Dawlish Warren, with the latter once described me to as akin to  'St Andrews in miniature', but that may well be over-egging the creamy Devon pudding. A West Country inland course that emphatically deserves a mention is Moretonhampstead (Bovey Castle), a Dartmoor favourite of Henry Longhurst in the 1926 design of which I recall his old Addington friend JF Abercromby had the dominant hand. I am not sure of its current 'country house hotel' status - it was historically in the same railway-owned British Transport Hotels stable as Turnberry and Gleneagles, but that world has long since gone...afficionadoes of Lonhgurst may recall that in Talking about Golf ( a collection of post-war articles for the British weekly Golf Illustrated) he gives his recipe for the ideal English golfing holiday. 'On one of the last occasions I was at Westward Ho! I joined a friend who was at that time fortunate enough to possess a Continental Bentley and for a week we made splendid progress around the West Country, starting at Burnham and Berrow, then moving to 'The Ho!' and Saunton, then to St Enedoc and Trevose, and finally home across Dartmoor with a call at that lovely course and hotel, Moretonhampstead. Whenever people ask me for suggestions for a golfing holiday, that is what I give them - always stipulating that they avoid the months of July and August'. Subject to that stipulation, and even without a Continental Bentley. that still seems to me a pretty wonderful trip, even if the summer green fees at one or two (although by no means all) of the chosen venues would make Henry blanch more than somewhat...

[Garland Bayley]

SE 11(349 yards) vs. B&NC 7(346 yards)

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Apparently Sean and I have diametrically opposing views of this hole at Saunton. I found it to be one of the simplest, straightforward, dare I say boring hole on the course. There is one option for a player like me: hit it to the left side giving the corner a wide berth and then hit a pitching wedge in to the green. You have to be highly skilled and pretty long off the tee to make the corner of the field a part of the hole in play.

The hole at Bude makes anyone that can hit it 200 yards decide how much they are going to challenge the narrowing and the hazard. Furthermore, the blind approach is as thoughtfully laid out as the others on the course. In this case it handles the ball that has been hit up the hill without a chance to start dropping steeply so that it may stop quickly. The depth of the green beyond the crest of the hill works very well.

Bude wins this hole for us high handicappers of course.

B&NC two up.

Garland,

I haven't played Bude so I'm commenting just from the pictures and may therefore be wrong. However, it appears to me that the 7th at Bude actually offers very little in the way of strategic golf. It appears that hitting a big, say 280 yard, drive is simply not an option as there is no fairway at all. You are therefore forced to hit the ball 200 yards off the tee - i.e. you are forced to play the hole in a certain way rather than presented with options. I'm not sure I'd take on the carry at Saunton but at least I could if I wanted to.

Unfortunately, as I have only played the course once, I'm not sure whether or not there are additional options. For my game on that trip, hitting it much over 200 was not an option as I did not take a driver along in my half set to spray the ball all over the place. The picture viewing my approach shot suggests there is at least some fairway cut on the hill up to the green to the left of the direct path that I walked to follow my approach. Also, unfortunately I'm not Ran, who would have quit playing golf to take the time to walk around take pictures, and fully understand the hole. But, the hole at Saunton is so ho-hum, not having an option for a 280 yard drive doesn't matter to the perhaps 80% of golfers that can't hit 280 yard drives (or 250 for that matter).

[Garland Bayley]

As a Devon-born and Somerset-raised GCA novice, please may I register a slightly different West Country Top Five

1) Westward Ho!
2) St Enedoc
3=) Burnham and Berrow
3=) Saunton East
5) Saunton West

with Broadstone tied at fifth equal if Dorset is included in this West Country cohort. I know that not everybody on GCA feels the love for RND, but I still think it offers a matchless golfing experience, with the stretch from the 3rd to the 11th offering some of the best natural golf in the world, and the whole providing (to me anyway) an unrivalled sense of 'golf in a recreational landscape'. In addition, is there any clubhouse more atmospheric than that at the Ho!? Last time I was there in 2009 I also enjoyed a fabulous pork roll and homemade broccoli soup for, if memory serves, three pounds all in. A distinct preference for RND over Saunton and B&B is a minority view, I fully appreciate, but it's one I shall continue to defend!

At a less elevated level, I have heard good things in the past about both Minehead and Dawlish Warren, with the latter once described me to as akin to  'St Andrews in miniature', but that may well be over-egging the creamy Devon pudding. A West Country inland course that emphatically deserves a mention is Moretonhampstead (Bovey Castle), a Dartmoor favourite of Henry Longhurst in the 1926 design of which I recall his old Addington friend JF Abercromby had the dominant hand. I am not sure of its current 'country house hotel' status - it was historically in the same railway-owned British Transport Hotels stable as Turnberry and Gleneagles, but that world has long since gone...afficionadoes of Lonhgurst may recall that in Talking about Golf ( a collection of post-war articles for the British weekly Golf Illustrated) he gives his recipe for the ideal English golfing holiday. 'On one of the last occasions I was at Westward Ho! I joined a friend who was at that time fortunate enough to possess a Continental Bentley and for a week we made splendid progress around the West Country, starting at Burnham and Berrow, then moving to 'The Ho!' and Saunton, then to St Enedoc and Trevose, and finally home across Dartmoor with a call at that lovely course and hotel, Moretonhampstead. Whenever people ask me for suggestions for a golfing holiday, that is what I give them - always stipulating that they avoid the months of July and August'. Subject to that stipulation, and even without a Continental Bentley. that still seems to me a pretty wonderful trip, even if the summer green fees at one or two (although by no means all) of the chosen venues would make Henry blanch more than somewhat...

I loved Westward Ho! too, but the flat greens are the biggest weakness. Certainly St. Enodoc tops it for that reason alone.

Minehead was fun for me, as it was the least penal course that I played on my trip, but it's dunes land is very low key. I wouldn't send Tony Muldoon there like I would to West Cornwall.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Dawlish Warren, with the latter once described me to as akin to  'St Andrews in miniature', but that may well be over-egging the creamy Devon pudding.

I take it the comment was made after several flagons of Scrumpy!


I have sung(quietly in a  minor key) the praises of Dawlish on here, but St Andrews it's definetely not.   I played it a couple of Easters ago and it was scary F&F so a whole bunch of fun. But it is also short, flat and in those conditions narrow in places. It's the sort of course you wouldn't want to recommend someone to travel a long way to play but would tell them to take their kids for a cheap family day out on the links if anywhere near. I would place it well behind West Cornwall in my ratings but it is the only links on the south coast and I hope to play it again later this year.


Welcome to the forum Richard. Have you played Bude? If so please speak up and don't be afraid of upsetting Garland, he's maized!

[David_Tepper]

Photos of Dawlish Warren:

https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A86.J5E5nuNUEnYA2OUnnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTB0aWRtNmFyBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwMV8x?_adv_prop=image&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&va=dawlish+warren+golf+england&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001

The club's website:

http://www.devonlinksgolf.com/

[Garland Bayley]

...Garland, he's maized!

Is the English way of saying corny?

[Garland Bayley]

SE 8(357 yards) vs. B&NC 1(352 yards)

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The Saunton hole features a blind drive over a dune to a wide fairway with sea rushes scattered about the rough, and an approach through a gap in the dunes to a green nestled narrowly between the dunes.

The Bude hole features fairway bunkering before and behind the dune that is crossed. The bunkers before the dune should steer you away from the line that would leave you in the bunkers blind behind the dune. The rough is light enough to allow balls to be found on misdirected shots.

I’m going to choose Saunton as the winner here, because a well-executed strategy can lead to a better result, whereas, the strategy of play on the Bude hole is a little more indifferent.

B&NC one up.

[Richard Fisher]

Dear Tony,

Many thanks for the kind welcome. My biggest West Country lacunae are almost certainly West Cornwall at one end of the region, and East Devon at the other, with a sideways nod towards Perranporth. I have driven past Bude, but never actually sat foot on the course, and therefore cannot really comment on the Bude/Saunton debate. My late father (not a major cider drinker, as far as I know - he preferred perry) was the source of the Dawlish/St Andrews comparison, in terms of topography, but looking at the pix on the various websites suggests that a better Scottish spit-based parallel for Dawlish Warren  is perhaps Fortrose and Rosemarkie. Any golf course that offers a fun and unpretentious setting for a family game at modest expense seems to me to be getting at least some of the basics absolutely right.

[Garland Bayley]

Saunton 3(367 yards) vs. B&NC 12(365 yards)

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Saunton has a horrible forced lay back hole, because to hit the fairway with a drive of any significant length you have to be able to turn the ball right to left into a 15 yard wide fairway, or lose your ball in ball gobbling rough. Even if the rough were not ball grabbing, the fairway is too narrow for everyone but the most skilled players.

Bude likewise prefers the ball be turned on the drive, but in its case from left to right. This is followed by an approach that needs a ball turned right to left. A wonderful golf hole in my opinion that tests the player without needing bunkers and rewards the most skilled while not sending the lesser skilled to the mental institution like Saunton.

Bude wins!

B&NC two up

[Tony_Muldoon]

Dear Tony,

Many thanks for the kind welcome. My biggest West Country lacunae are almost certainly West Cornwall at one end of the region, and East Devon at the other, with a sideways nod towards Perranporth. I have driven past Bude, but never actually sat foot on the course, and therefore cannot really comment on the Bude/Saunton debate. My late father (not a major cider drinker, as far as I know - he preferred perry) was the source of the Dawlish/St Andrews comparison, in terms of topography, but looking at the pix on the various websites suggests that a better Scottish spit-based parallel for Dawlish Warren  is perhaps Fortrose and Rosemarkie. Any golf course that offers a fun and unpretentious setting for a family game at modest expense seems to me to be getting at least some of the basics absolutely right.

My photobucket account has recently reactivated, if this works I'll find time for an East Devon thread.  I think you'd like it.

[Garland Bayley]

Saunton 9(378 yards) vs. B&NC 6(370 yards)

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Once again Saunton defends with a fairway narrowing to between 15 and 20 yards wide in the landing zone for the drives of a high percentage of the players, and the fairway in this area is angled from the tee. There is a bunker on the right to challenge the ideal line, but missing the fairway with penal rough is just as big a concern. When the rough is such that a lost ball is likely, the rough would perhaps be a bigger concern. If the drive is laid back behind the fairway narrowing, the green side bunker makes an approach extremely difficult, especially with the green angled back to the left behind it. Probably most players would do better playing this as a layup, followed by a layup, and a chip.

On the contrary, Bude provides a very generous landing zone for the drives. However, given the almost redan qualities of the green, being out of position make for a difficult approach. It would seem that playing to the right on the dogleg left would lengthen the approach, but make the green much more accepting.

These two holes would rate very similar with their similar raised greens angled back to the left on a dogleg left, but the penal nature of the Saunton narrowing takes much of the fun out of the hole.

B&NC three up

[Garland Bayley]

Saunton 12(396 yards) vs. B&NC 17(399 yards)

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The Saunton hole is a fairly straight forward hole running slightly downhill. The landing zone for the drive is reasonable, but you want to keep it right to avoid having visibility, and perhaps ball flight, being blocked by the trees/brush/sea rushes on the left. The green is open in front to allow the ball to run up now that we are into a little longer hole.

Like at Saunton, the tee shot at Bude is a bit obstructed on a hole running downhill.  The landing zone for the drive is similar in width to at Saunton. Unfortunately, I ended up playing down the right on this hole, and didn’t get a proper look at what had to be the best line for the drive and approach down the left. There is a hill on the right that this hole doglegs around so the view would open up down the left. The green here is fronted by a narrow stream in a deep stream bed that angles across its front coming closest to the green on the line my approach shot took.

I suspect I might like the Bude hole better more play/knowledge, but for now I am going to call this comparison a draw.

B&NC remains three up.

[Garland Bayley]

Saunton 16(406 yards) vs. B&NC 5(386 yards)

The Saunton hole plays slightly downhill, while the Bude hole plays slightly uphill.

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Here at Saunton we find the rare long golf hole that has some links like undulations, although they are mostly near the green for the approach shot to carry or run through. The ideal landing area for an aggressive play is blind with a blind bunker on the dogleg corner, whereas the landing area for the safer play is visible with bunkers catching long drives on the safe line. The aggressive line can cut 40 yards off the approach on this one of the sharper doglegs on the course.

The Bude hole is a more standard configuration, mostly straight, with flanking bunkers on the fairway, and a pair of bunkers well short of the green.

SE easily wins to bring itself back to only two down.

[Garland Bayley]

In the original CG, Tom wrote, “The short 13th and par-4 16th are excellent holes, but the rest do not stack up as well.”

As you can see from my last post (16th), and an early post (13th), I agree with Tom on this.

Furthermore, he wrote, “The East course enjoys considerable support as one of the best links courses in Britain, but I would not go that far in my support for it.”

I find it surprising the number he assigns to his evaluation of the course in both editions of the CG, as there seems to me to be cognitive dissonance between his write up and his rating value.

[Garland Bayley]

Saunton14(432 yards) vs. Bude 9(446 yards)

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Is the Saunton hole a golf hole, or a bowling lane? The drive is to a narrow fairway followed by a long approach over a fairway varying from 5 to 10 yards wide.

The Bude hole plays to a wide fairway, where the ideal position is next to the bunkers on the left opening up the downhill approach to the green for possible eagle.

Although you lose some of the links quality of the course near the green, the Bude hole easily wins over the oddity at Saunton.

B&NC three up.

[Garland Bayley]

Saunton 15(463 yards) vs. B&NC 18(447 yards)

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As the tee is offset a bit from the direct line down the hole,  the tee shot has a bit of a carry to reach the fairway on a very aggressive line. Otherwise, this is one of the easier holes at Saunton with a wide landing area for each of the first two shots.

The 18th at Bude plays uphill, thereby making the playing length of these two holes similar. The tee shot at Bude turns around a side hill, also testing the carry for a tee shot on the aggressive line. The width of the two holes is about the same throughout, but as is generally the case throughout the course Bude has more movement in the ground, and has rough that is more amenable to finding misdirected shots. Besides these factors, Bude wins this hole because the tee shot holds more interest than the one at Saunton.

B&NC four up.

[Garland Bayley]

Saunton 1(470 yards) vs. B&NC 16(423 yards)

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The hole at Saunton is a tough examination for the start of your round, primarily because of its length. From a raised tee you hit to a wide flat fairway, and then from a flat lie, if you have the length, you approach a green set in what might be considered to be a shallow punch bowl.

Since the hole at Bude is considerably uphill versus the downhill drive at Saunton, these holes will play to a similar length, which is beyond what I can reach in two typically. As can be seen from the photos of the fairways, the stance for your approach shot is going to be quite different. The uphill lie at Bude will help you get a long club airborne for the long approach if you have the length. It of course also tests your ability to hit shot other than you will find at the driving range.

Those appreciating quirk will probably prefer Bude. The others will probably prefer Saunton. Setting that aside, I am going to give the hole to Bude for having the character of slope versus flatness.

B&NC five up winning five and four. But, of course we will continue.