Course match up: Saunton East vs. Bude and North Cornwall

[Garland Bayley]

We begin comparing the courses by conducting a match play between holes of the courses. When others have done this on the website, they have simply gone in hole order,  matching the 1st against the 1st, the 2nd against the 2nd, etc. When I have done it, I have paired holes by similar length, and compared similar length par threes, similar length par fours, and similar length par fives. This does not work out perfectly in this comparison as the white tees I played at Saunton exceed 6400 yards in length, while the yellow tees (the longest) I played at Bude only exceed 6000 yards in length.  Therefore, there will be three mismatched holes at the end that will be compared. One reason Bude cannot matchup to Saunton, is that Saunton has three holes  at 396, 406, and 406, which clusters length, and reduces variety as two of these are very flat. Since Bude has more elevation change, some holes are matched against others of a different length, but perhaps closer to true playing length.

[Garland Bayley]

Saunton East 5 vs Bude and North Cornwall 4 (SE 5(113) vs B&NC 4(144))

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51415.msg1175614.html#msg1175614

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59960.msg1416094.html#msg1416094
   
These holes are not that close in length, but they have some similarities and it allows us to compare all the par threes of SE to B&NC.

This is one of the few holes in this match where we see more movement in the ground at SE, than at B&NC. The transition from green to tee, and from green to next tee at SE is very easy, whereas the transition to and from four at B&NC is very bad (crossing the road each way and walking the length of the hole to get to the tee). The hole at SE looks more natural, and I like a bunker directly on the line from tee to green more on the hole (SE) that is 30 yards shorter.

SE 1 up.

[Tony_Muldoon]

 

Garland you're nut's! But anyway good luck with the thread.

[Ed Tilley]

SE 1 up.

Now that's a sentence I never thought I'd see you write Garland!

[Adrian_Stiff]

Most people in the West Country recognise Saunton East as the best golf course in the region.

[Sean_A]

Adrian

Of course a lot of people (maybe most?) would disagree and cite St Enodoc as comfortably the best course in the West Country.  

Garland

As Spangles hints, this will be a very difficult thread to follow comparing three courses.  Its hard enough to follow two going out order.  

Ciao

[Marc Haring]

Most people in the West Country recognise Saunton East as the best golf course in the region.

If you're talking about the average punter i'd have thought they would prefer the likes of St Mellion, Nicklaus or maybe Remedy Oak.

St Enodoc would just squeeze it for me but B&B and Saunton East would be there or there abouts. There is something about Saunton though that is hard to beat. I always played it when the rough was not too punishing mind.

[Sean_A]

Marc

Saunton has that suprising stretch of holes from 8-11 which really lift the course in my estimation.  Its more out of the St E playbook and in some ways is very unSauntonlike.  Still, the immense variety of St Enodoc due to the terrain and bold design choices easily wins the day for me.  Everything else is fighting for 2nd and I wouldn't argue if somebody chose

2. Perranporth
3. Saunton W
4. B&B
5. Saunton E

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

No Sean. Saunton is the one most think of as the best.

GCA view might be St Enodoc but its a still the minor opinion. When you talk to golfers they cite far too many poor or average holes in the middle. I know you like the 4th but a lot cite that as a poor hole.

[Sean_A]

Adrian

I don't know the answer as I haven't polled anybody    That said, on Top100, they are neck and neck with Saunton just winning out...which basically means its a tie.  The punters seem to slightly prefer Saunton, but many of the opinions can't be taken too seriously based on their comments.  Me thinks St E is better thought of than you suggest, but it doesn't matter much because there are so few people in the West Country...its a big world 

Ciao 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean

I think St E is very well thought of, but it just does not better Saunton in the opinion of most. I have been talking about golf courses to people for 40 years and 25 years as an architect so it is the typical topic that crops up. Length of a golf course is a big thing for most people, typically people say "bit too short now" when they ponder over the merits of a golf course. We discount that a lot on this forum but in the eyes of most people they see long strong holes as good and the short and quirky stuff as not good. I don't really agree with that personally, but I can read the figures and the split between rounds on our Codrington course and Stranahan course is 85% versus 15%. Me personally I would rather play the Stranahan.......that though is a minor opinion.

Saunton ticks a lot of 'Open Rota' stuff, obviously not all but it is pretty beefy in places and that I think is the big over-riding factor that most think is a good.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Garland

As Spangles hints, this will be a very difficult thread to follow comparing three courses.  ...

What three courses?

[Garland Bayley]

Most people in the West Country recognise Saunton East as the best golf course in the region.

What do you recognize as the best golf course in the region?

[Garland Bayley]

No Sean. Saunton is the one most think of as the best.

...

Perhaps a lot of those most are just following opinion leaders. One opinion leader now has St. Enodoc at eight on his scale to Saunton East's seven.

[Ryan Coles]

My Top 5 South West Counties Golf Association.

1. Saunton East
2. Remedy Oak
3. Burnham & Berrow
4. St Enodoc
5. Broadstone

Within this Region Saunton and Burnham get more plaudits because they are nearer the bigger conurbations, and also for their championship pedigree. I personally think that all things considered they are better than St Enodoc. Maybe lacking the charm or quirk, but also lacking one or two of the weaknesses.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Most people in the West Country recognise Saunton East as the best golf course in the region.

What do you recognize as the best golf course in the region?

Saunton

[Adam Lawrence]

My Top 5 South West Counties Golf Association.

1. Saunton East
2. Remedy Oak
3. Burnham & Berrow
4. St Enodoc
5. Broadstone

Within this Region Saunton and Burnham get more plaudits because they are nearer the bigger conurbations, and also for their championship pedigree. I personally think that all things considered they are better than St Enodoc. Maybe lacking the charm or quirk, but also lacking one or two of the weaknesses.

I like Remedy but anyone who thinks it is better than Burnham or St Enodoc is either on a windup or values very different things in golf courses than I do...

[Sean_A]

My Top 5 South West Counties Golf Association.

1. Saunton East
2. Remedy Oak
3. Burnham & Berrow
4. St Enodoc
5. Broadstone

Within this Region Saunton and Burnham get more plaudits because they are nearer the bigger conurbations, and also for their championship pedigree. I personally think that all things considered they are better than St Enodoc. Maybe lacking the charm or quirk, but also lacking one or two of the weaknesses.

I definitely have Broadstone outside the top 5 (with Trevose), but we shall see what happens with the redo...I could see it going to the next level.  The problem for me is what to drop...Perranporth or Saunton W?  Both have cool elements that Broadstone can't match.

Ciao

[Ryan Coles]

My Top 5 South West Counties Golf Association.

1. Saunton East
2. Remedy Oak
3. Burnham & Berrow
4. St Enodoc
5. Broadstone

Within this Region Saunton and Burnham get more plaudits because they are nearer the bigger conurbations, and also for their championship pedigree. I personally think that all things considered they are better than St Enodoc. Maybe lacking the charm or quirk, but also lacking one or two of the weaknesses.

I like Remedy but anyone who thinks it is better than Burnham or St Enodoc is either on a windup or values very different things in golf courses than I do...

Adam

I'm sure I do.

I wouldn't read too much into the above though. I rate courses on 'where would I most like to play tomorrow' and I've done the SW links to death and Remedy Oak only once. Over time it could well fall, but on first impression I loved Remedy Oak.

Plus, I'd be more suspect of those of us who think Bude is better than Saunton.

[David Kelly]

My Top 5 South West Counties Golf Association.

1. Saunton East
2. Remedy Oak
3. Burnham & Berrow
4. St Enodoc
5. Broadstone

Within this Region Saunton and Burnham get more plaudits because they are nearer the bigger conurbations, and also for their championship pedigree. I personally think that all things considered they are better than St Enodoc. Maybe lacking the charm or quirk, but also lacking one or two of the weaknesses.

Interesting to see Remedy Oak there. I'm putting together a trip to that area and I dismissed RO out of hand.

We're planning on playing:

Mullion
West Cornwall
Perranporth
Trevose
St. Enodoc
Westward Ho!
Saunton East
Saunton West
Burnham & Berrow

[Garland Bayley]

... I'm putting together a trip to that area and I dismissed RO out of hand.

We're planning on playing:

Mullion
West Cornwall
Perranporth
Trevose
St. Enodoc
Westward Ho!
Saunton East
Saunton West
Burnham & Berrow

Throw out the Saunton courses and add Newquay and Bude & North Cornwall.

[Garland Bayley]

Apparently we all were in violent agreement on the result of the first match up of holes as not a single person objected and presented a counter opinion.

Therefore, on to the next comparison.

SE 13(138 yards) vs B&NC 10(154 yards)

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51415.msg1175630.html#msg1175630
   
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59960.msg1416842.html#msg1416842   

Since SE 13 has the green slightly raised, and B&NC plays downhill, the playing length of these is very close. Once again at SE, you see the kind of movement in the ground that you expect on a links, whereas at B&NC we have one of four greens that are down near the stream and the ground has less movement other than the descent down to the stream from the tee. Both greens are guarded by hazards left and right. While there are only two bunkers at SE, the movement in the green helps defend against going low, and misses encounter a hazard other than those defined in the rules by running to a level well below the green surface. At B&NC there are double the bunkers to the left and a stream to the right so the hazards defined in the rules do the guarding.

SE 2 up. (But then it seems SE has already used up most of its great ground on the par threes.)

[Garland Bayley]

SE 17(186 yards) vs B&NC 8(180 yards)

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51415.msg1175636.html#msg1175636
   
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59960.msg1416222.html#msg1416266
      
Both par 3s have hazards both left and right. The more penal hazard to the right at Bude might cause one to think a little longer about the shot they will attempt. I prefer the limited visibility for the hole at Bude, whereas others might prefer the complete visibility at Saunton. I prefer the slightly more movement in the green at Bude. Since Bude is less of a just bang away shot, I’m going to give this one to B&NC.

SE 1 up.

[Ryan Coles]

What is it specifically about limited visibility that is appealing?

Saunton is 3 up by the way and Bude is wishing she played Saunton's little sister to at least make things competitive....

[Garland Bayley]

What is it specifically about limited visibility that is appealing?

For one thing, John Kirk's unified theory of golf excitement http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,17958.0.html. If you try to run it on, you ball will disappear and make you wait for it to reappear on the green surface, or even if you fly it on to a place on the green not visible from the tee.

For another thing, visibility is not much of a factor for the average golfer. The average golfers have little anticipation that they will hit it close to the flagstick, so they have no need to see the bottom of it. Limited visibility allows the unveiling of a mystery.

Saunton is 3 up by the way and Bude is wishing she played Saunton's little sister to at least make things competitive....

So you give this hole to Saunton? Why? Unfortunately for Saunton East, Saunton West is far less boring, and a better play than Saunton East.