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Joel_Stewart

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The price of oil and the effect on the golf economy.
« on: February 10, 2015, 05:48:34 PM »
One question left out of the Ted Bishop interview was the effect lower gas prices will have on his golf course?  He was unsure if it would have a significant impact due to The Legends runs electric carts and the price of diesel for his maintenance machinery has not declined as much as gasoline.  Furthermore, his equipment is mostly idle during the winter months.

If oil continues to stay in the $50 per barrel range,  there has to be some significant contributions to the golf industry?  Players may be willing to travel farther to play golf courses, fertilizer may decline or stay level in price and those courses running gas carts will see savings over 2014.

Any other savings?

Pete_Pittock

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Re: The price of oil and the effect on the golf economy.
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2015, 08:13:22 PM »
in addition to travelling further to golf, they may play more often

Bill_McBride

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Re: The price of oil and the effect on the golf economy.
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2015, 08:56:46 PM »
You really think oil stays near $50 for long?  [chuckling sound]

Doug Siebert

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Re: The price of oil and the effect on the golf economy.
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2015, 11:49:57 PM »
You really think oil stays near $50 for long?  [chuckling sound]


Well this can be debated ad nauseum, but I think there are good reasons to think that might be the case.  But whether it does or not is irrelevant, the question is what effect it will have on the game if oil prices are at current levels for an extended period of time.

I imagine the savings for course construction would be pretty small, unless you are moving a really impressive amount of earth (and even then while the amount might be large in dollar terms it is probably still pretty small in percentage terms)

I am curious how it would affect the operational budget of courses in terms of fuel for maintenance equipment, fertilizer, and gas for non-electric carts.  Any supers care to guess?

I'm not sure it will affect golfers by making them more willing to travel.  When you compare the fuel cost to drive an hour round trip to a course versus what it costs you to play the course, unless you're driving a Hummer H1 to a muni in the middle of nowhere the gas price isn't in the equation.  What will help is the simple fact that lower gas prices make people feel richer (at least until gas is $2 long enough it becomes the 'new normal')  If they have or feel they have more disposable income, maybe they play an extra few rounds of golf or buy that new driver they've been eyeing.  It certainly can't hurt, though the course that are already circling the drain would only prolong their pain, this won't be their life raft.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Niall C

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Re: The price of oil and the effect on the golf economy.
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2015, 09:44:56 AM »
Doug

Here in the UK we are very heavily taxed on petrol therefore the fall of oil prices and the little in savings that has trickled through to the pumps have been a godsend for a lot of folk. For instance I reckon I've spent 12 to 13% of my disposable income on petrol over the last 5 years. Therefore a 20% decrease in the petrol price is very significant. I even read an article the other day that suggested that the UK's relatively better economic performance recently was largely due to falling oil prices.

Whether that's true or not, there is a perception that things are getting better and therefore slowly but surely there will be a releasing of the purse strings, some of which will result in more money being spent on golf.

Niall

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The price of oil and the effect on the golf economy.
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2015, 01:41:20 PM »
Lower oil prices don't have a significant impact on golf course operating costs. At my club, fuels, oils, and lubes amount to 3.5% of the maintenance budget, and about 1.5% of the overall facility operating budget. Throw in fertilizers, not all of which are petroleum based, and you have 5% and 2% respectively. Even a 50% reduction in petroleum prices would amount to less than a 1% saving in the overall operation.

I agree that lower fuel prices will help golf, like most economic sectors, in that the economy in general wil benefit and people will have more disposable income and more to spend on leisure activities. 
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: The price of oil and the effect on the golf economy.
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2015, 01:44:17 PM »
Don't golf clubs use red diesel in machinery?
Cave Nil Vino

Steve Okula

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Re: The price of oil and the effect on the golf economy.
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2015, 03:27:46 PM »
Don't golf clubs use red diesel in machinery?

We do. Both gasoline and diesel are less for us than at the consumer pumps.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

David_Elvins

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Re: The price of oil and the effect on the golf economy.
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2015, 04:08:00 PM »
Lower fuel prices should mean lower prices for PVC pipe.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Gary Sato

Re: The price of oil and the effect on the golf economy.
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2015, 06:54:33 PM »
You really think oil stays near $50 for long?  [chuckling sound]

You're right.  Looks like its going to $40.   Goldman Sachs and Citigroup both cut estimates.

Bradley Anderson

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Re: The price of oil and the effect on the golf economy.
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2015, 09:38:21 PM »
For the golf course equipment and carts we could save around $15,000 at our course in Chicago if these prices hold.

In the past three years the pay increases that we have given to our seasonal grounds staff have been eaten up by the higher gas prices. So from my perspective the lower gas prices will help the workers more than anyone else.



Thomas Dai

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Re: The price of oil and the effect on the golf economy.
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2015, 06:35:36 AM »
Oil business folks generally like their golf and there are a few places in the world where golf has developed on the back of the oil business. A low oil price tends to means less jobs. Not necessarily a good thing in places where oil and golf mix.
atb

David Davis

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Re: The price of oil and the effect on the golf economy.
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2015, 07:05:10 AM »
Combine these lower oil prices and the strength of the dollar right now and every single American on this site should have their sights set on Europe/UK and Ireland right now. It may not be cheaper for travel or better value at any time in our lifetimes.

As I just learned booking my trip out to Oregon in May. These low oil prices, combined with the poor exchange rate don't help in any way whatsoever and gas is still more than 4x per gallon over here compared to what you all are enjoying.

So while oil may be cheap a 1400 euro round trip ticket to Oregon is not a steal by any means. In fact, perhaps the most expensive economy ticket to Oregon I've ever purchased.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 09:08:49 AM by David Davis »
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Jud_T

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Re: The price of oil and the effect on the golf economy.
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2015, 08:35:56 AM »
Prices will stay low until OPEC breaks the back of every expensive producer, particularly those on this continent.  Tesla stock price, while arguably pricey to begin with, has been directly correlated with the price of crude recently (i.e. low gas prices doesn't induce the marginal consumer to buy a green car).  If every consumer has an extra $1200 in their pocket, this extra disposable income should translate into more rounds of golf, unless folks decide they'd rather save or pay down debt.  Travel should increase, although the price of plane tickets has been pretty sticky, unsurprisingly.  On the back side, all those retirees in Florida and Arizona will be seeing a smaller CPI increase in their Social Security payments over the next year as a result, so a mixed blessing for folks on a fixed income.  Pretty savvy play by the Saudis to keep us hooked to the teat longer than we might be otherwise.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 09:44:38 AM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

David_Tepper

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Re: The price of oil and the effect on the golf economy.
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2015, 09:25:52 AM »
"You're right.  Looks like its going to $40.   Goldman Sachs and Citigroup both cut estimates."

Gary S. -

Unless the so-called experts at those firms predicted oil would collapse from $100 to $50 a barrel, their current estimates (guesses?) are no more meaningful than yours, mine or your dog's.  ;)

DT   

Gary Sato

Re: The price of oil and the effect on the golf economy.
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2015, 02:03:04 PM »
Mr. Tepper:

I would hope the oil analysts at Goldman and Citigroup have a better view than you and I.  The last line is something, possibly $20 a barrel oil.

(Bloomberg) -- The slump in oil prices may not be over, according to Goldman Sachs Group Inc.

The decline in the number of U.S. drilling rigs that’s helped crude futures in New York rebound 14 percent from this year’s low isn’t enough to reduce an oversupply, the U.S. bank said in a note dated Feb. 10. Lower prices are needed for American output to slow sufficiently to rebalance global markets, it said.

Goldman joins Citigroup Inc. and Vitol Group, the world’s biggest independent oil trader, in signaling prices may resume a decline amid unrelenting production growth. West Texas Intermediate crude is still down by half from last year’s peak as the U.S. pumps the most in three decades. While companies have idled rigs and cut spending, it will be some time before production is affected, according to the International Energy Agency.

“The decline in the U.S. rig count likely remains well short of the level required to slow U.S. shale oil production to levels consistent with a balanced global market,” analysts including Damien Courvalin wrote in the report. “Lower oil prices will be required over the coming quarters to see the required U.S. production growth slowdown materialize.”

U.S. drillers cut rigs targeting oil by a record 435 to 1,140 in the nine weeks to Feb. 6, according to Baker Hughes Inc. That’s the lowest total since December 2011 as explorers slow efforts in the Permian Basin in Texas and North Dakota’s Bakken formation.
Production Growth

U.S. production will increase by 7.8 percent to 9.3 million barrels a day this year, the fastest pace since 1972, the Energy Information Administration said in its monthly report on Tuesday. That’s down 10,000 barrels a day from its January projection.
Goldman still forecasts “strong production growth” by the fourth quarter of 2015 amid increasing productivity at wells and rigs. The closing of the least-efficient output first also means more drilling has to stop to temper the increase in supplies, it said.
The bank cited producers as saying most of the decline has been for non-contracted rigs and they plan to renegotiate rates lower, meaning there’s potential for a rebound in activity. What’s more, the recent rally in prices has given them an opportunity to hedge against further losses, potentially reducing the need to slow output.

“A slower slowdown in U.S. shale oil production would leave risk to our price forecast skewed to the downside, as it increases the risk of running out of crude oil storage capacity, requiring a decline to shutdown economics,” the analysts wrote.

Forecast Lowered

Goldman last month cut its six- and 12-month forecasts for Brent to $43 and $70 a barrel respectively, from $85 and $90, amid increasing inventories. It also reduced its projections for U.S. benchmark West Texas Intermediate to $39 a barrel and $65, according to a Jan. 11 report.
Vitol Group’s Chief Executive Officer Ian Taylor said in London on Tuesday that “another move down” is possible before the market rebalances in the second half. Unrelenting U.S. crude production will lead to “dramatic” increases in inventories for several months, he said.

Prices may slump as low as $20 a barrel and remain there “for a while,” as U.S. supplies are joined by record output from Russia and Brazil,

Ed Morse, Citigroup’s head of commodities research, said in a report e-mailed on Feb. 9.

David_Tepper

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Re: The price of oil and the effect on the golf economy.
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2015, 02:23:42 PM »
Gary S. -

I have worked in the investment business for 35 years, the last 25 as a registered investment advisor. If I have learned anything over that period of time, it is to take the predictions of the so-called experts with a boulder of salt.

At the beginning of 2014, all but one of the 40+ economist surveyed by The Wall Street Journal predicted that interest rates would rise over the course of the year. The one who did not think interest rates would rise predicted they would be unchanged. The entire panel was wrong (as they are more often than not)!

It would be interesting to know what Mr. Morse and his colleagues were predicting a year ago regarding the price of oil.

DT  
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 02:25:33 PM by David_Tepper »

john_stiles

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Re: The price of oil and the effect on the golf economy.
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2015, 08:40:55 PM »


The drop in gas prices will be a breather for most superintendents desiring to stay on / under budget.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: The price of oil and the effect on the golf economy.
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2015, 04:31:45 PM »
David Davis you need to get savvy on airfares! I'm flying Dublin - London City - JFK - San Diego / San Francisco - LHR - Dublin all in British Airways Club (JFK to San Diego is AA First) for £1050 or 1375 euro.
Cave Nil Vino