[archie_struthers]

Had a nice chat with Mr Thomas Paul today about one of our favorite subjects, Pine Valley .  Specifically on the trees .

When we built Twisted Dune , we went to considerable lengths to clear over 250 acres , ostensibly to prepare it for,the removal of millions of tons of dirt .  We had at our disposal all kinds of machinery more befitting a gravel pit . We took down thousands of scrub pine and stumps , roots,, etc, etc on a fairly easy site for same . This being said , it was a huge undertaking, even in 2000.


Crump had elevation to deal with , swamps to drain , and thousands of trees to remove . I'm in awe thinking of how he did it.  The old pictures clearly show vast acres of sand , in an area where sandy soils beget the growth of pine trees galore. Crump clearly had a vision of space , without the intrusion of conifers .

Tom spoke to me of his need to "see the corridors" where the fairways would be ,and his lack of fondness for using maps to do the designing. However , the clearing sticks in my mind , and the obvious desire of Crump to build wide expanses and expose the sand . I'm hard pressed to believe that is wasn't conscious, and having lived here in the land of the Jersey Devil for many years , I can assure you that he didn't inherit a property without dense vegetation.  

The ocean once covered this part of South Jersey , and the  loamy soil  left after its recess is very fertile in this spot. He had to work very hard to clear it, which I continue to dwell on here. I know there are issues with stability that  come into play , but I can only dream of exposing all that beautiful sand once again !

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

Photos, circa 1926 to 1948 reveal the sand you seek.
Even in 1964 there was considerably more of it.

While much hasn't been written about it, I'd have to imagine the Crump burned rather than removed the cleared trees/scrub.

There were no strict burn permit requirements and burning is infinitely cheaper than removal.

[archie_struthers]

 
Interesting Pat , I thought of that , but it's not just the enormity of the job , it's his intent.  He clearly cut the "corridors" Tom spoke of , and more. I'm hoping someone can post some early pictures and show the enormity of the clearing.

Even after an uncontrolled burn , there's still stumping et al .  Crump clearly exposed acres of sand .

[Patrick_Mucci]

Interesting Pat , I thought of that , but it's not just the enormity of the job , it's his intent.  He clearly cut the "corridors" Tom spoke of , and more.


I disagree with TEPaul.

He did not cut out playing corridors.

Rather he cleared huge swaths of land in an attempt to discover holes.

Subsequent to finding them, he replanted the flanks, thereby creating the playing corridors.

Photos of the cleared land support my premise.

I'm hoping someone can post some early pictures and show the enormity of the clearing.

Some were posted in earlier threads on Pine Valley.

Even after an uncontrolled burn , there's still stumping et al .  Crump clearly exposed acres of sand .

Agreed, but I never indicated that it was an uncontrolled burn.

[archie_struthers]

Let's not get bogged down by semantics here , as it's not a test of our respective knowledge . Surely ideas can can be used collaboratively .  I'm actually focused ii on the wide swaths, as you and I define them . Or was it total clear cutting ? Pictures indicate its more in the line of what we employed in building Twisted Dune . He denuded acres and acres , far more than the norrm for the era, or so It appears thru pictures.

I'd love to talk to Eb  Steiniger just once more though it would be quite the trick . He might have some insights on the early supers and their instruction . In that Crump died , we must rely on some written accounts of his thoughts. These have been uncovered , and although I'm hardly  an expert on same , the pictures don't lie . He must have loved space, yet decided to,build encapsulated holes ! HMNNN.   Quite a riddle , don't you think !

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Archie

I want to say the PSU Mascaro- Steiniger turf museum has photos from the construction to go along with a horse drawn spade that was used to construct PV. It's been quite a few years since I was in there but I'm almost certain that's where I saw the pics. I might have to organize a visit the next time I'm up.

http://plantscience.psu.edu/research/centers/turf/facilities/museum

[Joe Bausch]

This link will take you to a site with 28 early photos of PV selected from the large database:

http://tinyurl.com/PVGCatSI

[archie_struthers]

 



Alan and Dr. Bausch, right to my aid.  Thank you !

So it's evident that clear cutting wasn't the goal from Joe's  pictures , yet a great deal of removal is obvious . In the picture of the 4th hole green site some specimen or strategic trees remain , same with #1to the right and at the corner of the dogleg . Pine Valley has enough acreage that there is a huge buffer on the periphery , except for the second tee and the 17th hole . In fact , behind the 14th green and off way right on ##17 are the only places you could possibly hit a ball off property .  

Definitely some corridors for golf yet big sweeping corridors , Crump a big advocate of width .  Pat talked about planting which is confirmed by record keeping but the time frame for stabilization has extended for decades , not just in the early construction phase.

This begs the question was it for strategic or stabilization and would Crump's desire be to have left it open without this need.  Still thinking about that one!  Anyone who,has seen the big storms run thru and the water moving can relate to the  superintendents dilemma with no vegetative glue.
Great start , let's discuss Crump's and his collaborators mindset  as to the extent of the clearing , which seems sketchy.

[Sven Nilsen]

My guess is that both Tom and Pat are partially correct.  They cleared large swathes of land, and then replanted once the corridors had been refined.  But he didn't clear everything.

Here are a number of other early shots of the course.

1915 -









1929 -

[Ed Brzezowski]

The super, where I belong, is going to ask his grandfater about the corridors. It seems his father, Gregs great great grandfather, worked the front nine with Mr. Crump. He is going to see what the gentleman recalls, he is a very sharp 90 year old.

Also there exists some pics of the equipment used to do the heavy work, looking to see if copies may be available. One is supposed to show this gent with his plow horse and a local Indian.

Cool stuff, hope it works out.

[archie_struthers]

Hey Swen the pictorial evidence seems to bear out your postulate . Tom and Pat can both be right. ,im still stumped as to whether Crump would have wanted that sand exposed after the grown in . It's a tough question , but hope to find the answer.  Certainly the super might be happy with some cement in the form of plantings to hold the place together. But it's worth exploring some more.


 The coolest thing about the pictures you posted , and they are all excellent, is that you can see the sixth fairway from the 3rd tee.  Having been there a thousand times , I never saw that before !

Thanks Ed , look forward to the info

[Patrick_Mucci]

Let's not get bogged down by semantics here , as it's not a test of our respective knowledge . Surely ideas can can be used collaboratively .  I'm actually focused ii on the wide swaths, as you and I define them . Or was it total clear cutting ? Pictures indicate its more in the line of what we employed in building Twisted Dune . He denuded acres and acres , far more than the norrm for the era, or so It appears thru pictures.

I'd love to talk to Eb  Steiniger just once more though it would be quite the trick . He might have some insights on the early supers and their instruction . In that Crump died , we must rely on some written accounts of his thoughts. These have been uncovered , and although I'm hardly  an expert on same , the pictures don't lie .

He must have loved space, yet decided to,build encapsulated holes ! HMNNN.   Quite a riddle , don't you think !

I'm not so sure.

The problem I have is that we know what Crump did, but I don't know what he would have done had he lived.

Others may claim that they knew Crump's intentions and therefore executed them subsequent to his death.

But, I don't know if those were actually the "author's" intentions and that the  "authors" merely used Crump's name to support their agenda.

And if everyone was so keen to implement Crump's intentions, why was the mound in the 18th green removed and never replaced by a similar mound or spine ? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie & Sven,

I'm not so sure.

I think you have to date each photo before drawing a conclusion

Remember, Crump began clearing immediately after he gained title.

So photos from 1926 are 12 or so years removed from his initial efforts.
And the vast replanting effort took place after Crump's death.

I don't know if you remember the photo taken from the ridge that's the 6th fairway looking back down at the 4th, 3rd 2nd and 1st holes.
The tree clearing was massive.

I don't recall as many photos of the back nine other than 18 and 14

[archie_struthers]

The picture from the 3rd tee is a classic , with the ridge line and fairway of #6 in the distance. Patrick , my feeling is that the plantings might not have been a Crump idea at all , but rather a superintendents desire to stabilize. It's pretty frustrating to have to rebuild the bunkers  and hillsides after each storm that rolls up the Delaware .

When  superintendent Dick Bator was given the freedom  by John Arthur's successor , Ernie Ransome , to  have at it , The transformation of the golf course wasn't incremental , it was dramatic.

Dick spent lots and lots of time and manpower exposing areas of sand. that had become overgrown . I distinctly remember him in hand to,hand combat with the gronkel in the big bunker that runs along the whole left side going to,the green on 13 . . I'm going to talk to Dick about his discussions with Ernie about such things  , and I hope he will open up to me . . Of course , he will no doubt ask why a  no putting , washed up old caddy is asking about such things , as he is wont to do ,

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

The "Mitchell Seed" photo from the back of the 18th green to the tee, is revealing in that the bank behind # 9 seems well stabilized by low growing plants/scrub.

I've heard the stabilizing argument, and there are areas where runoff and erosion could do damage, like from the tee on # 14 to the pond, but, so many of the corridors don't seem to need stabilization, and I don't know if pines would be the ideal tree for stabilization.

The photo of the 10th green Pre DA is stunning.

It would be interesting to see where tree removal wouldn't impact erosion.

Dick would be a great source.
What was his first year on the property ?

[archie_struthers]

The "Mitchell Seed " photo is definitely revealing , and clearly shows that many large pines were removed directly behind the 9th green . Many of us feel that that would be the ultimate skyline green if the trees were once again removed . I don't see any reason for that clearing except to create that effect.

Just looked at it again to make sure if it wasn't an angle issue . It's not possible,that was the 18th tee , is it . Nope , just looked again lol. !

Pretty sure Dick Bator's first year was 1979.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

I seem to recall David Moriarty posting a great photo of the 9th green from the 9th fairway and there wasn't a tree in sight behind the green, creating a fabulous skyline green.

Not long ago, I examined the area immediately behind the 9th green, at the crest of the hill and the slope leading to the 18th fairway.

It seemed that removing every tree that would prevent a skyline green could be removed without destabilizing the bank.

I think that would create one of the most intimidating shots on the golf course, or anywhere for that matter.

[Dan Herrmann]

Just curious.  Could Crump have tried to make some money off of the cut lumber?   There was a big market for lumber, and I'm guessing that money made from its sale could have helped fund the course's construction.

In other words, could there have been a financial motive for the clearing?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Just curious.  Could Crump have tried to make some money off of the cut lumber?   There was a big market for lumber, and I'm guessing that money made from its sale could have helped fund the course's construction.

In other words, could there have been a financial motive for the clearing?

Dan,

I thought a lumber company either owned the land sometime prior to the acquisition by Crump, or a lumber company owned nearby land.

Those fellows were pretty frugal and your premise makes alot of sense.

Who better to harvest the trees than a lumber company.

Great premise.

[archie_struthers]

The archives reveal a mining company actually sold the land to the club , but it certainly isn't a stretch to think the locals were allowed to cut the trees for firewood. Lumber was a needed commodity.

The  potential of sand mining on site intrigues me . Certainly the huge bunker fronting the sixth tee could easily Be the remains of a borrow pit . There were many of these dotting the landscape in southern NJ  in that era.

[JESII]

Archie,

Isn't there a sand mine virtually adjacent to the golf course? I think if you hit a driver straight right off the 14th tee you'd be nearby.

The two things that have always stood out to me in this conversation are; the pine trees that have encroached into the bunkers are generally small trees with little value that simply need relentless attention to keep at bay...and...how incredible, literally breath taking, the course would be if every corridor were 20 or 30 yards wider on each side.

As you said earlier, the property is huge and could easily accommodate that type of scale. If that width returned, people that have known and loved the course for 30 years would be blown away all over again.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The archives reveal a mining company actually sold the land to the club ,

Archie,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, before you start mining don't you have to clear the land your mining ?

but it certainly isn't a stretch to think the locals were allowed to cut the trees for firewood. Lumber was a needed commodity.

The  potential of sand mining on site intrigues me . Certainly the huge bunker fronting the sixth tee could easily Be the remains of a borrow pit .
While I've examined the land to the right of the green and approaching fairway, I've never examined the land behind and to the right of the green.

The intervening "pit" between the 6th tee and 6th fairway seems like it could have been a large mining site.

The road that runs behind the 3rd green and 4th tee leads to a steep incline that could have been an excavation site.

What are the earliest known aerials of the site ?

Are there any pre-Crump ?



There were many of these dotting the landscape in southern NJ  in that era.

[archie_struthers]

 


Hope we get some more opinions as to the possibilities that Pine Valley wasn't "virgin" soil at the inception . I know you are out there. Would it be acceptable to the cognoscenti that it was indeed manufactured to some extent . Surely there is no arguing that point , yet it is universally acclaimed as one of the greatest designs ever. Does acknowledgment open some minds to nurture vs. nature ?

Why the big drop off from #1green to the second tee and fairway . Doesn't look like a sand wash caused by water.  The angles seem too abrupt . The road that runs behind the third green , what was its genesis . I've got to do more reading from the archives . I'm comfortable on strategy on the holes , but slightly fuzzy on the genesis of the architecture

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