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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #900 on: September 10, 2010, 10:42:25 PM »
Mark,

Any before/during/after pictures?

I'm sorry I couldn't make trip before the work started.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #901 on: September 10, 2010, 10:43:01 PM »
Mark
Would you consider this a restoration or a redesign?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #902 on: September 11, 2010, 09:20:44 AM »
Tom MacWood:

It is not a restoration.  On some of the holes, we are choosing to do things that ARE restorative, because we think the original hole was really good; but we are also completely changing holes 1, 2, 7, 17 and 18, primarily because we thought the starting and finishing holes were pretty dull and could be improved.

The interesting thing about North Shore (and the problem) is that it was designed in the mid-1910's, when Raynor assumed that good players were hitting the ball 180-220 yards ... so, many of the holes have the coolest topography in the fairways in places where the better players today don't even notice it.  This is one reason that the course has been more popular among seniors and good female golfers than among the 5-handicaps who determine what's great ... it's not really about the total length, as much as it is about where the interesting features come into play.

There was no room to lengthen (most tees are up against a fence or another fairway or severe topo), but by rerouting 1-2-17-18, we were able to bring some of the better features more into play for the better golfer.  On #7, we just quit fighting a short par-4 that was too short, and have turned it into a driveable par-4, based loosely on the sixth hole at Pacific Dunes.  I would never have done that at Old Macdonald, because it wasn't a Macdonald concept, but the marching orders here were NOT to preserve everything Macdonald did even if it wasn't working well today.

I have very seldom considered doing redesign work like this, for two reasons:

1.  It's difficult to make significant changes on a course where for 90 years, every decision has reinforced the original plan, and

2.  The politics of redesign are impossible to deal with; most clubs have 300 members who joined because they like what's already there, and no suggested change will be even close to unanimous.

So, I generally have preferred to stick to restorative work, where there is no argument the membership can make.  At North Shore, though, the political argument went away because many of the previous members are now gone, and I only have one owner to answer to.  In fact, 15-20 years ago I looked at the same course, but declined to become involved precisely because the committees were so fractured and because they were not open to considering more radical changes.

I suspect this sort of work will be much more common over the next 10-20 years.  The permitting process is much more streamlined (although tree ordinances can be a problem), and the work can happen quite quickly if there are some holes worth keeping and you are really only making major changes on a few.  I do still believe there are many old courses which ought to be restored instead of redesigned, but I don't think North Shore was one of them.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 09:28:09 AM by Tom_Doak »

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #903 on: September 11, 2010, 09:27:24 AM »
Did you conduct any research before you made the decision not to restore or was the decision made before you were hired?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #904 on: September 11, 2010, 09:39:22 AM »
Tom:

I don't know what you mean by research.  I certainly didn't do an exhaustive historical study, thanks partly to this thread, which has parallelled our involvement.  I did gather information from George Bahto on what he had done to the course in a renovation a few years back, and I've looked at whatever old photos they had.

Mr. Zucker hired me to make recommendations first.  If that recommendation had been to make a complete restoration, I think he would have accepted that; but he has certain goals to restore the course to prominence and to attract new members, and I don't know that he believed he could accomplish those goals by leaving the basic design unchanged.  I didn't think he could, either.  The north shore of Long Island is an extremely competitive market for good golf courses; Engineers is just down the street, and The Creek, Piping Rock, Garden City, and Sands Point are all less than 15 minutes away.  North Shore wasn't considered in that league with its original layout, whomever you prefer to ascribe it to.  And the club was never going to be really successful if it was considered a weak sister to all of those others.  I'm not saying what we are doing will make the course BETTER than those, but it will put it in the discussion.

We only made the decision to start on the work we have recommended less than a month ago, and I am still changing the details of the design on the fly, so we have always been open to incorporating whatever anyone discovered about the history of the course.

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #905 on: September 11, 2010, 10:36:20 AM »
Were you able to determine what White did during his tenure at North Shore? How good was the course in the late teens/early twenties when it hosted the Metropolitan Open and the US Am?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 10:40:05 AM by Tom MacWood »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #906 on: September 11, 2010, 01:50:43 PM »
Tom Doak & Tom MacWood,

North Shore doesn't compete for members with Piping Rock and The Creek and probably not GCGC either.

Engineers, Glen Oaks, Glen Head and Fresh Meadow are more likely their competitors.

I happen to really like North Shore, always have, but, I wonder if it's the golf course or more so the clubhouse and facilities that have North Shore on the short end of the stick.

Every golfer I spoke to who played North Shore this year in the MGA Senior Amateur, liked the golf course.
It had a sporty feel about it.

If I lived in that general area, it wouldn't be the golf course that disuaded me from joining that club.

Price and facilities may be more of a factor.

Robert Emmons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #907 on: September 11, 2010, 04:04:11 PM »
Patrick,

You are 100% correct that North Shore does not compete with Nassau, Piping Rock, or The Creek Club. Their is no overlap with GCGC.
The competition is Engineers, Glen Head, Muttontown, Pine Hollow, Tam O'Shanter, Glen Oaks, Old Westbury, and Fresh Meadow for them. It generally is not the golf course that attracts members or sets them apart form each other....RHE

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #908 on: September 11, 2010, 04:12:42 PM »
Tom MacWood:

No, I have no idea what Mr. White did or didn't do while at North Shore.  His tenure precedes any good aerial photos of the course, and no one has found any old plans dating back that far.  The little bit of written description of the course is hard to make heads or tails of.


Patrick / Robert:

I realize that no one has thought of North Shore as competing with the other clubs I mentioned earlier, and I also realize that as an historically Jewish club, the other Jewish clubs in the area were its main competitors.  However, Mr. Zucker doesn't want the club to be thought of in that light anymore, and that's one of the reasons I'm here, to get people talking about the golf course again.  And I think they will, when the course opens next year.


Mark Hissey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #909 on: September 12, 2010, 12:04:23 AM »
Mark,

Any before/during/after pictures?

I'm sorry I couldn't make trip before the work started.

No problem Steve. Youi'll like it better in the Spring anyway. Trust me.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #910 on: September 12, 2010, 10:24:58 AM »
Tom/Mark,

What's the budget for the golf course project ?

One of the best ways to get exposure is to host a tournament or event.

Have you tried to secure anything for 2011 ?

Mark Hissey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #911 on: September 12, 2010, 12:30:24 PM »
Tom/Mark,

What's the budget for the golf course project ?

One of the best ways to get exposure is to host a tournament or event.

Have you tried to secure anything for 2011 ?

Pat:

That's confidential right now.

We had some discussions yesterday about what you just mentioned. Stay tuned...

Patrick_Mucci

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #912 on: September 12, 2010, 09:00:07 PM »

Mark,

I understand.

When I played North Shore recently, I had a conversation with about a dozen other competitors.
I made the statement that if I lived in the area and the price was reasonable, I'd join North Shore in a heartbeat.
That sentiment was universal amongst us.  We all liked the sporty nature of the golf course.

These are hard times and I believe that they're going to get harder, therefore, well priced quality courses will have an advantage.
For years, every club tried to be all things to all people.  While you can strive to achieve that in very good times, I don't think that model works in difficult times, and, that model tends to be very expensive.   With the younger generation playing early, and then going home, I'd have to question how prudent trying to provide ancillary services is.

Today, I had a discussion with a rather knowledgeable individual and we were discussing utilization patterns amongst younger members and their use of the golf course, clubhouse, pool, tennis, etc., etc..

If the culture of a club tends to be golf oriented, and the club is pressed for members, I'd sure opt to provide a continental breakfast, lunch and no dinner, especially when clubs are forced to charge minumums just to get their members to use the club, AND, I haven't come across a club yet that ran its food and beverage dept at a profit.  Every one I know of loses money.  So, if you lose money, with a minimum, what does that tell you ?

It tells you to reduce your food operation considerably

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #913 on: September 14, 2010, 12:07:33 PM »
Mark,Tom,Steve,  et al,

This project is great news. Does the new 17th, a par 3, use the ravine that slashes through the last few holes on the (original) back nine ?  
What is the approximate yardage of 17, is it a drop shot or a forced carry ?  

thanks
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 09:26:12 PM by mark chalfant »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #914 on: September 14, 2010, 12:48:23 PM »
To follow up on Mark's question, could you list the holes changed and detail how they were changed ?

Thanks

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #915 on: September 14, 2010, 02:52:54 PM »
Mark:

I don't want to go into a long hole-by-hole description, but the main idea of reversing the first two and last two holes was to trade out four short/medium par-4 holes for a more diverse group.

The major changes are as follows:

New 1st hole, 380 yards, from old 18th green up to old 2nd tee.  Improves visibility over present first hole.

New 2nd hole, 305 yards.  Sahara type, from between 2nd & 18th tees down the old 17th fairway, with green set to the left backing up close to the ravine on #16.

New 17th hole, 135 yards.  From old 17th tee just across the ravine, to the wildest green I've built in a while, based on the Short hole at National.  Added a fourth par-3 hole when previous course had only three.

New 18th hole, 615 yards.  From old 2nd green up and over the hill and down to old 1st tee.  Deep bunker front left of green and a nasty fall-off to the left.  Adds variety of a long par-5 hole when all the rest were 475-500 yards; also more dramatic view down toward the clubhouse than on the present 18th.

New 7th hole, 315 yards.  Tee moved up the hill to the right of the 6th green; approach opened up so that you can try to drive the green, but any pulled drive will result in big trouble.  Based loosely on the 6th at Pacific Dunes, but styled to look like Raynor.

We have also rebuilt the sixth green (more of a punchbowl) and will do major grading in the sixth fairway; and today we are starting to rebuild the 15th green, which was just too steep.


Jim_Kennedy

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #916 on: March 01, 2015, 07:33:48 PM »
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« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 07:37:33 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

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