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Gary Sato

Unloved golf courses
« on: February 08, 2015, 05:52:02 PM »
The winter edition of Links Magazine has an article of 14 UNLOVED golf courses . It is written by Tom Doak.

They are:

Scotland
St. Andrews (old)  (Rated #4 course in the world)
Askernish
North Berwick (Rated #68 in the world)
Elie

England
St. Enodoc
Cavendish
St. Georges Hill
Royal St. George’s (Rated #29 in the world)

Northern Ireland
Royal Portrush (Valley)

Wales
Pennard

United States
Mid Pines
Fenway

Europe
DePan

New Zealand
Arrowtown

To me, any course that is rated as a world top 100 course in not unloved especially the 4th ranked course by Golf Magazine?  In my limited experience, I would select Yale and possibly Pasatiempo as the most unloved.

Any others?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 09:22:41 PM by Gary Sato »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2015, 05:56:57 PM »
Carnoustie

and I seriously have to question North Berwick-even Touring pros praise it
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2015, 06:07:22 PM »
How could you possibly not love North Berwick? 
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2015, 06:34:46 PM »
Just for the record: Tom Doak does not say the courses are "unloved." The cover and the title of the article do. Sales job, don't ya know.

Mr. Doak says merely that the 14 courses are among "the many courses you *should* see."

On the other hand, I presume that the editors of LINKS did not insert the irrelevant dig at George W. Bush.


« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 06:37:18 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2015, 07:00:53 PM »
Scotland
St. Andrews (old)  (Rated #4 course in the world)  Its all talk...people love the course even when scratching their heads.

Askernish  A bit too soon to make a call.

North Berwick (Rated #68 in the world)  Not sure of the logic here.

Elie  

Royal St. George’s (Rated #29 in the world)  Have to agree since the course is in England...the name should be a clue.

England

St. Enodoc This one is a bit like N Berwick...well loved and respected by most who play it.

Cavendish  Agree.

St. Georges Hill  I rarely hear a bad word said about the place.

Northern Ireland
Royal Portrush (Valley)  Agreed and hence the changes to host a tourny...on another course  :-\


Wales
Pennard  Another like N Berwick, really well loved, but it somehow doesn't translate in the rankings.

United States
Mid Pines  Maybe the redo needs more time?

Fenway  

Europe
DePan

New Zealand
Arrowtown  

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 03:54:27 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2015, 07:43:07 PM »
I have played 8 of these and am a member at one.  Those I have played share mant things (quirk being one) but I cannot, for the life of me, see in what context they could be described as unloved.  And yes, as Sean points out, any list that has RSG in Scotland is of dubious value.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Gary Sato

Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2015, 09:23:23 PM »
  And yes, as Sean points out, any list that has RSG in Scotland is of dubious value.

My mistake, error corrected.

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2015, 10:33:34 PM »
Among truly great courses that a lack of love occurs:

US      Yale
            Engineers
            Laurel Links
            CC of Buffalo
            Rustic Canyon
Ireland   Baltray
                Island
Scotland  St. Andrews New
                  Carnoustie
                  Craig
England   Fornby
                  Stoke Park
                  Chart Hills
                  Deal
                  Saunton  (both)
                  Sunningdale New

Brett Wiesley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2015, 10:47:46 PM »
I'd agree with Mid-Pines.  Great restoration, and course.  Just wonderful par 4's, really makes you appreciate how you attack each hole, and the angles.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2015, 11:04:19 PM »
I was asked to write on "underrated" courses ... after negotiating my way out of writing about "overrated" courses.

Unloved is something very different, I think.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2015, 02:39:00 AM »
I was asked to write on "underrated" courses ... after negotiating my way out of writing about "overrated" courses.

Unloved is something very different, I think.

What, the press using a quote out of context!!!!!! Surely not :o It says a lot about the sheer genius and quality of TOC when ranked as 4th best in the world it is still considered underrated.

Jon

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2015, 03:47:24 AM »
I was asked to write on "underrated" courses ... after negotiating my way out of writing about "overrated" courses.

Unloved is something very different, I think.
That makes a whole lot more sense!
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Gib_Papazian

Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2015, 04:48:07 AM »
IMNSHO, the site of the first Open Championship does not get the dap it deserves. I find it particularly galling when unobservant, provincial idiots from America spend the time and money to travel and play in the British Isles - only to return having no better understanding of the game than when they left.

To me, Prestwick and Monty Python are perfect litmus tests. If you do not love them, I have no interest in the rest of your opinions because both require a sense of humor.

Cruden Bay does not get nearly enough love either. While we're on the subject,  a well-traveled older gentlemen recently suggested I ought to have my head examined when I opined I'd rather play Lahinch than Ballybunnion Old.

As a general rule, golf courses in the U.K. and Ireland can be roughly divided between whimsical adventure (North Berwick) or objective examination (Carnasty). Great movie comedies hardly ever get taken seriously enough either.        
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 04:49:38 AM by Gib Papazian »

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2015, 10:37:41 AM »
I was asked to write on "underrated" courses ... after negotiating my way out of writing about "overrated" courses.
Unloved is something very different, I think.
Is it kind of like 'respected only' and thus unloved?  Unendearing?  Emotionally Unengaging?
Would Firestone be in this category?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 11:01:47 AM by Carl Rogers »
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2015, 10:47:28 AM »
I was asked to write on "underrated" courses ... after negotiating my way out of writing about "overrated" courses.

Tom --

As I suspected. See post No. 4 in this thread.

However:

Your introduction to the piece in LINKS pointedly observes, of the original Confidential Guide: "... it's been infamous primarily for its negative reviews because it's rare to find any golf publication willing to take the chance of offending a potential advertiser."

And now you tell us, here, that you *found* that rare publication -- and negotiated your way out of it?

What a pity. I'd have thought that a balanced list of both "overrated" and "underrated" would have been quite useful and interesting to the readers of LINKS.

Dan



"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Philip Hensley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2015, 01:15:28 PM »
Love the inclusion of Mid-Pines, so true. Even in the sandhills area it is underrated, but that is rapidly changing. I think within 5 years Mid-pines will be on everyone's Top-2 list of which Pinehurst courses to play.

And yes, many other courses in the area could use similar type renovations/restorations.

Gib_Papazian

Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2015, 01:45:44 PM »
In terms of overrated and emotionally unengaging, Troon is at the top of the list. I'm also not sure that Winged Foot West has an ounce more charm than Carmoustie, which would be one ounce above zero. If I belonged to W.F., I'd play the little brother every day and probably never set foot on the other tee. I prefer beauty with brains.

Famous venues whose primary selling point is 18 holes of self-flagellation are always popular with the scratch player S&M crowd - but for those of us not into leather, they go the bottom of the list - right there with Medinah, Firestone, Oakmont, Atlanta Athletic Club, Oakland Hills, Aronomink and Southern Hills.

It always surprises me how often middle handicappers come back from playing these courses, raving about how much they enjoyed it - as if being horsewhipped and sodomized by Bubba wearing a sandpaper condom is somehow more fun than going around Fox Chapel or Shoreacres. And If I'm going to be put through the paces, I'd rather climb in the sack with Anna Kournikova (Muirfield) than Venus Williams (Butler National).  

I understand how the mentality of many low-handicappers leads to these one-dimensional beasts getting overrated by some of my fellow panelists, but when they elbow courses like Pasatiempo off the list, I strenuously object.    



  
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 01:54:14 PM by Gib Papazian »

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2015, 02:27:36 PM »
Sandpaper condoms and sodomy???  Good Lord I better rethink hanging out with you guys.
Mucci I assume there is no hotel at this spring venue for golf and dinner?


What's next farm animals?
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2015, 02:33:27 PM »

Gib,

You do have a wonderful way with words. I find the image of Bubba with his parerphanalia quite stimulating.

Bob

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2015, 02:52:31 PM »
Certainly in Chicago the two most fun courses Ive played are Old Elm and Chicago, far better than a 7200 yard US Open style monster. At least at those two Bubba would be using lube!
Cave Nil Vino

Jason Way

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2015, 06:20:39 PM »
Might have just gotten a multi-layered tour of Gib's psyche that I hadn't bargained for, but I can roll with it.

Although underrated, I think Old Elm falls into a different category.  Their membership is more of the "please don't rate our course" variety.  As I understand it, after the restoration by Drew Rogers and Dave Zinkand, there was a LINKS Magazine article about the course that was to be published.  The membership put the kibosh on it. 

I do agree though about how fun it is.  I loved it before, and now after the work, it is right in my top 3 of courses I could play every day for the rest of my life.
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Rees Milikin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2015, 06:35:35 PM »
Aiken Golf Club, which might be due to its short length.

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2015, 08:28:16 PM »
I don't understand, will have to read the article.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Gary Sato

Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2015, 06:59:35 PM »
I was asked to write on "underrated" courses ... after negotiating my way out of writing about "overrated" courses.


The cover says "Unloved, These 14 courses deserve much more respect".

The lead in to the article is " The Great Unloved,  Tom Doak-famous for knocking down golf courses that get too much praise - names 14 that deserve more".

No link yet on the Links Magazine web site.


Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unloved golf courses
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2015, 09:42:46 PM »
Two courses that don't get enough praise in my book are Exmoor in Highland Park, Illinois and Pine Hills in Sheboygan, WI.

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