Lido - A Redux

[Brian Zager]

With today's construction technology we could make all the same features look more natural and tied in to the surrounding land but that wasn't the point.  The point was to replicate the original.

They probably feel safe to criticize a modern replica but not the historic original because the standing of the original is pretty much universally accepted.  But when you ask them why, their criticism is actually of things true about the original.

I think there are some valid criticisms of the original.  But I would never agree that it's not a great course.

[Matt Schoolfield]

As someone who had some criticisms of it in this thread, do I think it's overrated? Yes.  Do I think it's a really good course that everyone should play? Yes.

all about the actual golf shots and not views of the nearby ocean.

They probably feel safe to criticize a modern replica but not the historic original because the standing of the original is pretty much universally accepted.  But when you ask them why, their criticism is actually of things true about the original.

I think there are some valid criticisms of the original.  But I would never agree that it's not a great course.

I mean, I really think we are treading close to an issue near and dear to me, that is, it doesn't make sense to have single-dimension consensus rating systems in general, especially for aesthetic preferences like golf. People like different things, and people should like different things.

If some folks think feeling the ocean spray on #8 is important to their golfing experience, or looking out over the channel on the channel hole, that's perfectly fine, but it doesn't matter in the slightest to me. I honestly think I prefer the course not being directly in the flight path of JFK airport, but again, my point is that consensus opinions typically miss the forest through the trees when it comes to what individuals actually care about.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

But, I really don’t understand why those NLU guys make everything personal - everything is written as if I’m trying to make them look bad.  (I have not read or watched much of their content, apart from their videos on Pacific Dunes and The Loop, which a couple of friends sent to me.)  I don’t really know them at all, and 3/4 of the stuff they imagine I’m thinking is wrong.  It’s never occurred to them to ask me, though.

Point of clarification: the quotes above were from NLU forum members, not the NLU "staff" or members like Tron, Sony, Randy, Neil, or DJ…

[Stephen Davis]

I haven't posted on here for a very long time (mostly like to just read posts), but I thought this thread deserved a response. I got to see the Lido for the first time this weekend and played a round on two separate days with two different winds, one being a strong prevailing wind. I think it is one of the best courses I have ever played. It is incredibly fair and shots played to the correct areas of both the fairways and greens inevitably ended up in a reasonable spot. Were they all high percentage birdie putts? No. Did they yield easy pars if played correctly? Absolutely.


I think Tommy's comment that it is a cerebral course is right on. I am someone who will often play 36 holes in a day with no issues. I am so glad that I was able to space my Lido rounds out to different days, not only to experience different pins and potentially different wind conditions, but also to give my brain a rest. I don't know if I have felt more mentally tired after a round. It truly requires thoughtful strategy and commitment on every shot, in order to not put yourself in jail and also to give yourself an opportunity to score. That being said, I felt like more than almost any course I have played, if you pick the line, commit and hit your shot, the course yielded itself.

Since it was brought up earlier by the NLU poster that Erik quoted. I cannot imagine going to Sand Valley and not playing the Lido. In the hypothetical 10 round split there, I would go 4 Lido, 3 Sedge Valley, 2 Sand Valley, 1 Mammoth Dunes (with hit and giggle rounds on the Sandbox most days).

[Joe Zucker]

It is incredibly fair and shots played to the correct areas of both the fairways and greens inevitably ended up in a reasonable spot. Were they all high percentage birdie putts? No. Did they yield easy pars if played correctly? Absolutely.

Continuing to think about the Lido and refine my thoughts.  I agree with Stephen's points that you can almost always get to a reasonable spot if you are thoughtful.  However, one thing about the Lido is that you have to decide if you are playing safe or aggressive in a way that is very extreme.  On most courses, you can play an aggressive shot and have a miss where it ends up OK.


The Lido did not feel this way. You could often pick the conservative shot and play a good shot to a safe space, but you has no chance of it ending up close.  There is no in-between.  This makes the course extremely cerebral as many have noted because you need to think about the shot far more than most courses. 


I still believe the course is a little too extreme and firm, but it should be played on every trip.

[Stephen Davis]

It is incredibly fair and shots played to the correct areas of both the fairways and greens inevitably ended up in a reasonable spot. Were they all high percentage birdie putts? No. Did they yield easy pars if played correctly? Absolutely.

Continuing to think about the Lido and refine my thoughts.  I agree with Stephen's points that you can almost always get to a reasonable spot if you are thoughtful.  However, one thing about the Lido is that you have to decide if you are playing safe or aggressive in a way that is very extreme.  On most courses, you can play an aggressive shot and have a miss where it ends up OK.


The Lido did not feel this way. You could often pick the conservative shot and play a good shot to a safe space, but you has no chance of it ending up close.  There is no in-between.  This makes the course extremely cerebral as many have noted because you need to think about the shot far more than most courses. 

I agree with the first part completely. For an example, on Hole 3, Eden, the pin was about 5-7 paces from the left edge of the green. I picked a line about 3 yards right of that and I pulled it. Ended up right by the pin. If I had been aggressive and aimed at the flag, I would have been toast.


On your second point, I would say close is relative. If I am 150 yards out and I put it to 30 feet. Am I close? Not close, but I am completely content with that outcome. Do I think I should be able to get it inside 20 feet regularly from 150. Not at my skill level and I'm not sure at anyone other than maybe the very top players in the world, and that would be regardless of what course they were playing, but certainly not with the firmness of the greens at Lido (which I found to be nearly ideal).

[Peter Flory]

My thoughts on the difficulty of the course are below.

Reasons why the course is easy:
- plays much shorter than the actual yardage due to the firmness.  A 270 carry may end up 330 there. 
- the drives reward a fade for the most part, especially the short par 4s, 5, 9, and 13. 
- can bounce it on from well short of most greens from the proper angles (except 4, 10, and 14). 
- greens are enormous with lots of flat areas
- fairways run fast, so it's easy to putt from well off the greens without a big speed differential
- no trees to get stymied by.
- has 3 very short par 4s that are supposed to be gettable (but tricky)- 5, 9, and 13.
- the firm greens don't get footprinted up, so short putts really hold their lines well.  i.e. no volcano cups. 
- water rarely comes into play- just on 4 and 12 for most people
- no out of bounds.  It's not uncommon to play one ball for multiple rounds there. 
- nearly impossible to lose a golf ball that isn't in the water.  I've only seen it happen twice.  i.e. fescue is sparse and wispy. 
- lots of helping contours once you know the course.  There are rails in fairways to steer the ball into certain places and there are some backboards that are useful on some of the greens- front of 2, back left on 4, fairway right of 5 green, entire 10th green, entire 12th green, thumbprint on 14, diagonal on 15th green, the tiers on 18. 
- 2 of the par 5s are basically par fours in the modern game- the 6th and 7th.  The 6th in particular can often be Driver + PW for a strong player when it is downwind.  Even with hickories, I've reach all 4 of the par 5s from the back tees.  The other par 5s, 4 and 17 are pretty easy pars if that is your goal.
- and of course, even the difficult holes have alternate routes that can be utilized- most famously, 4 and 18. 

Reasons why the course is difficult:
- the site lines off the tee are almost all partially obscured.  Makes it disorienting on the first few plays. 
- firmness of the turf makes it impossible for most players to hold greens from the incorrect angles
- lots of forced carries of cross bunkers- all of the par 5s have a crossing hazard for instance.  Have to be really smart about knowing when you can and can't make the carries and resist the urge when it's marginal. 
- the waste area is a crapshoot in terms of the lies that you get- footprints, tufts, and a variety of difficult outcomes.  I'd say good lies are 50%, poor lies are 25%, and really bad lies are 25%. 
- the bunker lips are severe, much like pot bunkers in the UK.  Very often, it's a blast out. 
- there are a lot of bunkers and they have gravity b/c of the contours and the turf firmness.
- it is very exposed to the wind.  On a breezy day, players who can't control their flight get eaten alive.  Tight turf = lots of spin and the shots want to balloon into the wind. 
- very tight lies around the greens make it tough for those who want to use loft, or who are in positions where they need to lob the ball.  I take a low bounce 60* wedge to deal with these situations... but that's a very difficult shot. 
- Firmness of the greens makes many short sided misses impossible to get up and down... auto bogeys if you're smart- doubles if you're not.
- Very difficult set of par 3s.  The 14th is the easiest of the bunch and it's a forced carry with wind as a major factor. 
- Long misses are punished and most visitors have trouble adjusting their yardages to the firmness, so they miss long a lot at first.
- When the greens get fast, the wind plays a major factor in speed and break.  And they have gotten really fast lately. 
- Most of the breaks are subtle and there are a lot that go to the backs of the greens. 

To me, a lot of the difficulties fade away as you gain course knowledge and feel.  You just develop a playbook on where to go and where to absolutely avoid, when to play safe, and when to be aggressive.  At this point, I can go out there and have a poor ball striking day and still get around decently... as long as I aim for safer pockets off the tee.  Whereas, if I were playing a course like Butler National, that wouldn't be possible. 

[Ira Fishman]

I have a particular, personal question. Sedge Valley alone would prompt us to travel there, but Lido is so intriguing. However, forced carries have become a big deterrent as we get older and shorter off of the tee. 180 yards is my average max and my wife is around 100. Are there tees that work? For point of reference, TOC was a treat for me despite being completely confused while my wife was exhausted and deflated by the forced carries off of the tee.


Thanks.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Ira, I don't know about your wife; I never checked forward tees. You should not have a problem. You just might not get to the green in regulation all the time in regulation. I don't hit it much more than 210 or so. The forced carries were not so bad if you play the correct tees.

[Tom_Doak]

Ira:


You’d be fine at Lido.  I’m not as certain about your wife; I have yet to receive any feedback from that sort of player, and we didn’t think as hard about the forward tees at Lido because we were building Macdonald’s design.  (The Short hole, #14, is about 120 yards from the front tee and all carry.). Usually, my courses are more popular among women than men, and the firmness of Lido (and all SV courses) would be to your wife’s advantage, but I have zero feedback on that course so far.

[Brian Zager]

Sara Mess spent time thinking about the positioning of forward tees and was on site to consult just before the opening last year.  I was there to help out when she was there and it wasn't just an afterthought.  We considered multiple positions on every hole.

My dad plays a 180 yard carry and can play fine from the tee behind the most forward (second most forward?).  I have not heard feedback or seen anyone play from the most forward tee though.  On the channel hole, the most forward is just before the second carry over water and is about a 50 yard carry minimum.  The bunkers short of the 4th and 12th greens could pose a problem not due to a force carry in length but in height, as there are bunker faces about 10 feet high you have to play up over.  I don’t remember where the most forward tee ended up on 14, probably somewhere over in the 13th fairway because as Tom said, there’s really no way around it from the regular tee.  That’s the most difficult of it I think.

On the others we tried to put people in a position where if they hit a good tee shot they can make the carry on the next one.  Hopefully a forced layup only comes up if you didn't hit a good tee shot, just as it does for the rest of us.  It would be most interesting to get feedback on that, especially on the other par 5s besides the channel hole.

[Ira Fishman]

Tom, Tom, and Brian,


Thanks for taking the time to provide the fulsome results. One or two longish forced carries work. My wife loved Yale but still laughs when she tells friends about taking on number 9.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom, Tom, and Brian,


Thanks for taking the time to provide the fulsome results. One or two longish forced carries work. My wife loved Yale but still laughs when she tells friends about taking on number 9.

Ira,


I can’t imagine what #9 at Yale was like when the course opened. Must have been very hard for most golfers, harder than anything at Pine Valley that was built for skilled golfers.


Tim

[Matthew Lloyd]

As somebody who had never played a MacDonald course before I found playing the Lido absolutely fascinating, and a month later still find myself thinking about the round.


The 10th is maybe the most fun I’ve ever had on a golf hole. The 12th isn’t far behind. I spent weeks reading up on the course and MacDonald before the round so I was as well prepared as I could have been, but was still taken by surprise on nearly every hole.


Our caddie, a college student named Jack, was a HUGE help.


A project that’s been great fun since the round - organizing my photo record of the course. (Apologies if you happened to be stuck behind me during the round - as the photo record is extensive). Looking at actual prints of the photos weeks later and trying to put them in chronological order is a real puzzle - and in addition to be a great way to reflect on the round - you can really see the intricacies of the design and how it all fits together. When printed in black and white it looks like you’re documenting time travel.

[Jeff Fortson]

The Lido is one of the best golf courses in the country, and probably the world, imo. 

I had the fortune of playing there in the summer of 2023 in the last tee time of the day.  I was with a foursome with two caddies.  I drew great luck getting an exceptional, veteran caddie from Sand Valley on the bag.  Considering he had only been working the Lido property for a handful of months, he was very well prepared and quickly able to figure out the players he was working for and gave excellent advice.  Having heard about the original Lido from people on this forum for well over 20 years I was also in a uniquely good position to at least have some form of what to expect in terms of the holes I would be seeing throughout the round.  So my experience had built in expectations and knowledge, which probably helped and influence my opinion of the course.  I felt the course over delivered on that expectation.

It felt like a Rubik's Cube that was 10x bigger/complicated than a regular one and did so with an inviting golf atmosphere.  I felt the subdued nature of the non-golf amenities were actually additive to a pure golf experience. Small clubhouse (not sure, might be temporary with plans for a typical one), no over the top style comfort stations, etc. all which let me focus on the golf and not on being pampered.  The sightlines on tees and approaches were puzzling and asked great questions that I feel put players at a little unease (something I consider a positive quality).  The greens were mind-blowingly good, the templates are arguably some of the best versions of said templates, and it felt in general like a place that one will never truly see everything it can throw at you.  I found there were lines of play on the approach with unobstructed views on nearly every hole, which speaks to the importance of choosing great lines off the tee.  This can be challenging without the child's blanket of typical hole/shot framing.

The Lido is a course that asks the player to control the ball for reward.  Very little to no containment mounding, very few "framed" shots, with a 10/10 shot value experience on approaches.  Properly played shots are well rewarded.  A "good strike" does not constitute a "good shot" and Lido embodies that ethos in spades.  I played the course from about 6500yds and felt like I should probably push that back to 6800yds the next time I play should I play with modern equipment  (if I'm lucky enough to get the opportunity again).  Admittedly, I played well which certainly added to my experience but I think I would have come away feeling the same had I shot 10 shots higher.  I really, really would like to play it with hickories one day.  That seems like it would be an absolute blast.

I could go through a hole-by-hole description of what I thought of each hole, but I don't think anyone wants to read multiple paragraphs about each one.  I highly suggest everyone try playing it at least once.  If you come away thinking it is over-hyped, or unenjoyable, then so be it.  I am very happy it was resurrected and confident it is making its way into my personal Top 5 courses in the world.  I felt like I got in the golf equivalent of a time machine and was able to walk the streets of Ancient Rome after attending a gladiator match at the Colosseum.

[PThomas]

Cutting right to the chase:   one of the very best of the 1148 courses I've played