Lido - A Redux

[Sven Nilsen]

Anthony:

Copied below are the quotes David Moriarity compiled in another thread that describe the inspiration for the Biarritz template (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,21926.0.html).  In short, there was a hole at Biarritz, a not very good par 4, that had a hogsback (raised area) in front of the green with the land after the hogsback dropping back down in front of a (raised) plateau green.  CBM adapted these features from the Par 4 onto a long Par 3.  Over the years, the hogsback in front of the green has become what we know think of today of the front portion of a Biarritz green.

CBM  mentioned what became known as his Biarritz concept shortly thereafter in a letter printed in a June 20, 1906 NY Sun article about his recent trip abroad:

"The best holes have not been found on the five British championship links alone.  . . . The idea for one hole comes from Biarritz.  The hole in question is not a good one, but it revealed a fine and original principle that will be incorporated into my selection." 

CBM expanded on the description later that year in his article on ideal holes in Outing Magazine where he provided a sample listing of 18 holes:

"15. 210 yards. Suggested by 12th Biarritz making sharp hog back in the middle of the course.  Stopping thirty yards from the hole bunkered to the right of the green and good low ground to the left of the plateau green."

H.J. Whigham repeated this early understanding in 1913 when describing  the inspiration for Piping Rock's Biarritz: 

"There is a Biarritz hole of about 220 yards which is new to this country and is one of the best one-shot holes in existence. There is a hog's back extending to within thirty yards of the green and a dip between the hog's back and the green."

I'd suggest reading that thread in its entirety.  It is conclusive that the inspiration for the Biarritz template came from the 12th hole at Biarritz.  The only thing that isn't conclusive is exactly which hole was the 12th at Biarritz when CBM saw the course.  But we do know that it wasn't the Chasm Hole.

If you'd like to revisit this issue, I'd suggest starting a new thread or bringing that old one back to life.  We've gotten a bit far afield from the Lido on this one.

Sven

[Jud_T]

CBM expanded on the description later that year in his article on ideal holes in Outing Magazine where he provided a sample listing of 18 holes:

"15. 210 yards. Suggested by 12th Biarritz making sharp hog back in the middle of the course.  Stopping thirty yards from the hole bunkered to the right of the green and good low ground to the left of the plateau green."

Sven,

This is very interesting.  I hadn't read the entire other thread closely and hadn't noticed this.  Based on this description Banks' 12th at Tamarack may be the most true to the original spirit of CBM's description I've seen given the bunkering and the steep slope left of the green down toward the 13th tee.  Granted I haven't seen every Biarritz.

[Mark Fedeli]

I'd suggest reading that thread in its entirety.  It is conclusive that the inspiration for the Biarritz template came from the 12th hole at Biarritz.  The only thing that isn't conclusive is exactly which hole was the 12th at Biarritz when CBM saw the course.  But we do know that it wasn't the Chasm Hole.

I'd recommend this to everyone who has not read it before. It is by far my favorite thread and a tremendous example of the value of this site and the members on it.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,21926.0.html

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

I just clicked on the thread, 13 pages?!? Christ.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I just clicked on the thread, 13 pages?!? Christ.

It was a great 13 pages though.

[Bill Brightly]

Macdonald did not copy; he adapted. None of his holes are copies of the originals.

Bill: you are right, however, about the front portions of the Macadonald-Raynor-Banks Biarritz, none were built as greens. It was incorrectly assumed for years that Yale's Biarritz was all green, until about 10 years ago when I found a Hartford Courant story about the opening of the course where the writer calls the front portion "fairgreen."

So the Biarritz swale get's its inspiration from what hole?

Anthony, Anthony... I know my MacRaynor well enough to never say CBM copied a hole. I said he did not copy the green at NB 16.  And Macdonald did use the word copy when desrcibing the features that he imitated.

I defer to Sven, David M. and Uncle Georgie  and others when it comes to figuring out what inspired Macdonald. I just know what MacRaynor Biarritz holes look like, and that CBM's desire was to test a long club, requiring a low running approach between two parallel bunkers, through a swale to the putting surface. It was never to have a two-section green bisected by a deep swale.

Personally, it is one of my least favorite templates. The design, while cool at the time, did not fair well when the technology changed with golf balls, clubs, and irrigation systems. Better players just fly the ball to the rear section.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill Brightly,

I think the reason that the Biarritz did not age as well as the other par 3's, in the face of modern technology, is that when it was initially conceived and constructed, flying the ball to the back tier was so beyond comprehension, that no meaningful defenses were constructed long of the green.

I doubt that 1 % of tee shots went long.

If there was a significant penalty for going long, I think the Biarritz would remain as a very viable and challenging hole to the modern day golfer.

I happen to love Forsgate's and Yale's Biarritz, but, going long is almost desirable, as it is on the Redan.

[Jim_Kennedy]

.

[Jud_T]

Pat,

How long do you think a Biarritz would have to play today to present the scratch player with the same challenge it did 90 years ago?

[Tom_Doak]

Garden City hosted the 1913 U.S. Amateur so unless there were dramatic changes before 1918-1919, it does not make sense that the first at Ocean Links is designed with regards to the the fifth at Garden City other than the hole favored a drive to one side of the fairway.

I've long had a feeling that C.B. Macdonald was not telling the truth when it came to hole designs. I think he was trying to give credit to others rather than take the accolades for hole designs.

I think Biarritz is perfect example. I think he took the tee shot of the Chasm Hole in France and combined it with the rotated–if memory serves–of the 16th at North Berwick to make  sensational par-3 but gave the credit to others.

Then again, I could be completely wrong.

Anthony

Anthony:

That's an interesting take on Macdonald since his biography is so full of taking credit for what he thought he should, but, I never met him either.

As to the 5th at Garden City, the first 290 yards of the hole are still much the same today as they were in the early 1900's.  The green was tucked in on the left just behind a couple of bunkers at the foot of the bank that goes up to #4 fairway, but the hole was much shorter than today's version.  [Robert Trent Jones moved the green back sixty yards in 1960, and when we rebuilt that green for physical problems, they wanted it at the current length.  We did use the old green site as the temporary green for a year while the present green was growing in ... and the original hole was not especially popular with the membership.]

There appeared to be a deep pot bunker just at the back right of the original green, so if you didn't play out to the right, it lurked right behind the shallow and firm target of the green.

I have never seen a Macdonald hole that really reminded me of that hole at Garden City ... I suppose the hole he called "Leven" had some resemblance, with its mounding in the front, but we all know that template supposedly came from Scotland.  George B. thought that Raynor had built a version of it on the 7th hole at North Shore on Long Island, so when he did some consulting work there 10-15 years ago, he built a new green with a long "panhandle" front section [which, as far as I have seen, the 5th at Garden City did not have].  Anyway, the hole was so short that the hole was not working, so we completely rebuilt it again when we did the work for Mr. Zucker four years ago.

[Sven Nilsen]

Looking to see what I have on the 5th.

The 1900 Plan of the course:



A 1900 description of the hole:



A photo from 1903:

[Sven Nilsen]

There appeared to be a deep pot bunker just at the back right of the original green, so if you didn't play out to the right, it lurked right behind the shallow and firm target of the green.

The descriptions of the first at Ocean Links talk about the ideal angle being from the right side of the fairway.  Perhaps this is where the similarities lay, as it sounds like that was the preferred angle of attack for both holes.  That, and they were both relatively short and played as a drive and a pitch shot.

Sven

[BCrosby]

Either something is off in the drawing or those early Garden City guys had a perverse sense of humor. The 5th tee looks to be in the middle of the 8th fairway.

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

Either something is off in the drawing or those early Garden City guys had a perverse sense of humor. The 5th tee looks to be in the middle of the 8th fairway.

Bob,

The 5th tee is in the general DZ on # 8

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

How long do you think a Biarritz would have to play today to present the scratch player with the same challenge it did 90 years ago?

My initial thought was that the center of the back tier would be in the 280 range, but let me give it more thought

[Jim_Kennedy]

Garden City #5.  There were changes made to the 1913 couse sometime in 1916/early 1917 which predates the Links course. Articles from 1916 mention that their spring invitational was being canceled due to renovations by Travis, and at that same time most, if not all, of the green committee members quit and Travis assumed the position.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Timely topic - especially as it's been reported in the past that Mike Keiser has told Mosaic he'd pay for a Lido reproduction if Mosaic gives him the land.

I wonder who'll build it.....

[Bill Brightly]

Pat,

How long do you think a Biarritz would have to play today to present the scratch player with the same challenge it did 90 years ago?

As Pat suggested, 280 is about right. It has to be long enough so the sratch player can't fly a lofted club to the back section. And the putting surface has to be firm enough that a driver won't bite and hold. Ideally, there must be some significant penalty for going long.

We added a new Black tee about 7 years ago at Hackensack so it plays 250 to the middle of the back section, and converted to front section to putting surface so the ball truly will roll; a low running shot definitely will work. But the scratch players just hit their 3 woods or 3 rescues and fly the ball to the back. And I must admit that I hit driver, because I cant keep a low running shot straight enough. I'd much rather miss in the side bunkers that flank the back setion rather than the approach: I do NOT want to leave a 50 yard bunker approach.

So sadly, the hole is only "working" for the players who can't reach the back section. These guys are forced to hit driver and rely upon roll. The good news is THESE guys are enjoying the thrill of the ball disappearing in the swale and hoping it reappears on the back section.

[Bret Lawrence]

Jim,

I think the bunkers to the left side of the fairway got cut off in your articles from 1913.  The fifth would have looked more like this in 1913:

I apologize for the scale, my photo shop skills are non-existent.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Timely topic - especially as it's been reported in the past that Mike Keiser has told Mosaic he'd pay for a Lido reproduction if Mosaic gives him the land.

Jim,

That's very interesting.

I don't see how Mosaic could reject that offer.

I also don't see why you wouldn't initiate the project ASAP.

I wonder who'll build it.....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bret,

Nice rendering.

What's missing from these schematics is the high right to low left slope of the fairway combined with some rolling tee to green movement in the fairway.

Those movements all flatten out as you get closer to the green and the fairway narrows
Jim,

I think the bunkers to the left side of the fairway got cut off in your articles from 1913.  The fifth would have looked more like this in 1913:

I apologize for the scale, my photo shop skills are non-existent.

[Josh Bills]

Found this one from Golf Illustrated from 1930 showing the bridge over the second water crossing.  Appears the approach shot from at least the left side was blind, hidden by the cross bunkers and a giant pole assuming to be located behind the green.  I wonder if the fairway on the right was of higher elevation, giving a reward to those who attempted the more risky shot. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Josh:

The right side fairway was described as raised above the level of the tee, creating a partially blind shot to reach it (partially because you could see where the fairway started, just not its surface).  It would make sense in terms of the reward for taking on the challenge that the player was rewarded with better sight lines into the green from there, although I haven't seen that aspect of the hole specifically discussed.

Sven

[Adam_Messix]

.....

[Peter Flory]

I'm bringing back some lost courses via computer design for PC and simulator play (as a hobby).  I have 3 courses in front of Lido (OFCC #3, Illinois Golf Club, and Mill Road Farm) and each one takes months, but want to start assembling information on Lido.  I've read all the threads here and searched online, but want to tap into the knowledge of this forum so that I can work smarter.  Getting the designs perfect in 2-dimensions is easy if there is a good arial, but getting the 3rd dimension right is very difficult, even with perfect ground level photographs. 

Just a few questions:
- I've only seen actual photographs of certain holes at Lido.  Are there photos out there of every hole that have been been assembled in one spot- say a book, or are there certain holes that don't have any surviving photos?  It really helps to see the hole for the greensite and bunker contouring. 

- What is the best source for written descriptions of every hole?  I think that I saw a magazine writeup with a comparison between Lido and Pine Valley or NGLA.  If there are no photos, the more descriptions and written accounts, the better.  For instance, knowing that they modeled a green after another famous one would allow me to keep the spirit of the hole even if its not exact. 


- I also thought that I read that there is a highly detailed architectural map of the course with elevations, etc that would make it easy for another architect to replicate the course.  Is that true, and if so, has that been posted here? 


When I get works in process going on some of these, I'll post here and can hopefully make them better with some guidance.