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Matt MacIver

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #150 on: February 10, 2015, 08:26:00 AM »
If you read the second article I posted, it gives the names of the three winners, Mackenzie, Edmonson and MacIver (unfortunately, the only article I don't have is the one announcing the winning designs).

Sven - this was already a great thread but now that I see my kin-folk placed 3rd in the design competition it got even better!  Now I see where I geot the bug from!  Gotta find the article announcing the winners...

In all seriousness though the articles and pictures add a ton of context to this discussion, so thanks for the effort.

Jim K - thanks much for the three-way side by side, that was just great. On paper I think Lido is the most playable and interesting, especially if all the non-water hazards are playable/findable, vs marsh.

If anyone wants to take a stab at a new thread putting side-by-side pictures up of other famous templates it would be a winner!

Edit: here is a link to a 2011 article with some info: http://www.golfworldmagazine.com/golfworld/20140317/m3/Page.action?pg=52.

Edit 2: here is a link to Sean Tully's thread with the original winning article: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46651.msg1033187/topicseen.html#msg1033187
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 08:51:38 AM by Matt MacIver »

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #151 on: February 10, 2015, 08:32:41 AM »


Taken sometime in the early 1930s, after the course was abandoned. The first green is in the lower right hand corner. The ninth hole runs clockwise around the trees. Those trees are visible in other photos of Ocean Links when it was still in use.

There is an artists rendition of the 1929 aerial in a wonderful book called To the Nines.

The bunkers near the top of the photo are on the 9th at Newport Country Club.


This is a COPYRIGHTED photo.

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #152 on: February 10, 2015, 08:55:08 AM »
Jim:

To answer your questions To the Nines Part Deux, is scheduled to make its appearance in May of this year. You can pre-order now.

http://nrlws.rowman.com/ISBN/9781630760830/To-The-Nines-Second-Edition

Anthony

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #153 on: February 10, 2015, 09:03:51 AM »
Here's the Aug. 1, 1914 article depicting the three wining designs for the Country Life contest.









« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 09:05:34 AM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #154 on: February 10, 2015, 09:37:01 AM »
Sven -

Looking at the CL contest again after a couple of years reminds me that the second and third place holes were also damn good. ;)  In fact, they would be - as we say today - more 'sustainable' than MacK's winning hole.

Thanks for posting.

Bob

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #155 on: February 10, 2015, 09:37:55 AM »
Neither Valhalla or King's North have an elevated green, nor do their 'safe' routes have 2 water carries for both routes (KN might, but only if the player doesn't hit his second down into the neck), and they have nothing but water fronting their greens from the 'island' fairways. The last reason is KN's and V's biggest 'fail', for me.
Lido's raised green adds to the player's uncertainty in choosing the proper club,  plus, Lido has a substantial section of fairway between the water and the green for the player who opted to play to the 'island'. That 'saving' fairway is the temptation-piece that might make a marginally long player decide to take the shortcut in the first place.

None of these are seen at Valhalla or King's North. So yes, there are general similarities in their design, but they aren't the same hole.  

Jim, I don't think anyone has suggested that there aren't differences between Valhalla's 7th and Lido's channel hole. I do think, however, that the playing qualities are very similar, and that there are several aspects of Valhalla's 7th that I might even consider superior. For one, Valhalla requires you to fully "cast the die" on the tee shot. If you choose the island fairway, you not only need to pull off a tee shot to a fairly small target, but you also must trust your ability to pull off a second shot that's fully over water to make the gamble worthwhile. The demands of the route mean that it will only be available to the strong player, much like the island fairway at the channel hole, and for that player I prefer the shot demands of a full forced carry to the green as opposed to the way that the Lido hole offers a safety net of about 100 yards of fairway fronting the putting surface. Valhalla's hole gives the long hitter a chance to do something spectacular, but also gives him just enough rope to hang himself on either of his two shots. Lido's tee shot appears equally demanding, but the second shot is far less risky than the one at Valhalla.

The safe routes are also quite different, with the safe shot at Lido appearing not to be all that safe. Sure, the fairway is wide in the driving zone. However, there's little margin of error for the player who misses the fairway and even this "safe" route involves two forced carries over water and a substantial cross bunker near the green. Valhalla's dichotomy is far clearer - the risky route is shorter but fraught with far more risk, while the safe route is longer but truly safe. Lido's "safe" route isn't safe at all.

Of course, much of Lido's praise centers on its virtues as a championship test, and I suspect the channel hole would be quite interesting in a championship with players choosing routes based on how they gauged the risk and reward. I also like that the routes have a bit of ambiguity - what appears to be the safe play isn't completely safe, and the risky play actually has some forgiveness built in. There's no doubt to me, however, that the channel hole wasn't remotely accommodating of the weak player. While I don't mind a hole that punishes a high handicapper on occasion, the demands of the channel hole are clearly severe. It's always a bit messy to try to guess how our biases affect our perceptions of golf holes, but it is fun to imagine what the response would be if Raynor had designed a hole more like Valhalla's 7th at Lido and Nicklaus had designed a hole that more closely resembled the channel hole at Valhalla.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #156 on: February 10, 2015, 10:11:18 AM »
Jason and Jim,

In my opinion the main issue with Valhalla's 7th are the proportions.  From any tee other than the back the "channel" is not long enough and the angle to the island is awkward.  It makes no sense to go for it when you must hit your drive less than 250, then carry your second another 250.  Might as well try to crank a drive to the mainland and then hope you have less than what you'd have if you went for the channel.

However, if we're discussing solely as a championship test with professional quality players, I think Valhalla's 7th is an excellent hole.  From the WAY back tees, the channel makes total sense and I think it's an excellent hole for the pros.  It's only that way if you can hit a 3wood 280 yards and carry your 5wood 250.


Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #157 on: February 10, 2015, 10:17:41 AM »
The one question that I have yet to find any information on is why, so soon after building NGLA on the model of an ideal course, did they build Lido on a much grander scale?

In his write up of an ideal course prior to the creation of NGLA, Macdonald specifically notes 6,000 yards as the magic number, using examples of the great courses he had visited.  How do they tack almost 10% more on?  Sure, there were a couple of new original holes that may have played longer than the holes they substituted in for from NGLA, but that doesn't get you an extra 400 yards.

Even more curious is that they continued to build courses in the 6,000 yard range after Lido.

Knowing what we know about CBM, this break from theory seems out of the norm.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #158 on: February 10, 2015, 10:37:29 AM »
Do we know where CBM got his 6,000 yard magic number? TOC was reported by Garden Smith to be 6,323 yards in 1898, which was long for the time but it was widely viewed as the best course in the world, then and later.

Bob 

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #159 on: February 10, 2015, 10:39:36 AM »
In my opinion the main issue with Valhalla's 7th are the proportions.  From any tee other than the back the "channel" is not long enough and the angle to the island is awkward.  It makes no sense to go for it when you must hit your drive less than 250, then carry your second another 250.  Might as well try to crank a drive to the mainland and then hope you have less than what you'd have if you went for the channel.

Agreed. One thing I wondered as I was writing my last post is how the proportions of the holes would stack up today. Lido's 4th was 505 yards following the safe route. The shorter route played around 465, and required a 210 yard carry to reach. The approach from the end of that fairway would have been around 160 yards I think - the fairway didn't run out until around the 310 mark.

With that in mind it seems that after you adjust for the distance of today's game that the "island" at Valhalla is disproportionally closer to the tee and further from the green even from the back tees but especially from the more forward sets. Then again, if it required a comparable carry to reach from the back tees to what Lido's hole would have required back in the 1920s at 210 yards, I don't that many players would ever attempt it (guys like me who are just trying it for kicks notwithstanding). Modern strong players don't take many unnecessary risks, and I would guess a 210 yard carry from then would translate to at least a 260+ yard carry today, maybe more.

Which makes me wonder - how many players in Lido's day had the distance and guts/foolishness to go for the "island" fairway? I keep coming back to the way Lido was lauded as a "championship test." This in concert with Sven's noting that Lido was perhaps uniquely long for a MacRaynor course and some of the apparently substantial shot demands, it all just makes me wonder if the course was intended to be exceptionally difficult in a way that other MacRaynor courses were not, or if perhaps worries about equipment technology advancements were weighing on minds at the time of construction.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #160 on: February 10, 2015, 11:03:55 AM »
Bob:

Here's CBM's "Ideal Course" article:













"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Josh Bills

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #161 on: February 10, 2015, 11:20:33 AM »
Appears in 1952 Alfred Tull was at least considering creating a second Lido at Oceanside per this Golfdom article.  Per the article he was attempting to create a championship test that "would afford enjoyment to the typical club golfer" as well.  The inference appears to be that Lido was championship, but also friendly to the club golfer.  The article also calls the Lido layout sporty. 


Matt Frey, PGA

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #162 on: February 10, 2015, 11:32:06 AM »
I know Baywood Greens in Delaware isn't everyone's favorite course on GCA, but the course also has a channel-like golf hole (see Google Earth image below). The "safe" route is significantly longer than going for the island fairway; a golfer who hits their drive 225 yards will face a shot of about 180 coming in from the right fairway compared to 150-160 from the left.


Josh Bills

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #163 on: February 10, 2015, 11:33:52 AM »
In 1929 Bobby Cruickshank noted the high level of golf course conditions at Lido and National, even better than the West Coast courses, though still not up to GB links standards.



Golfdom August 1929

Sean_Tully

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #164 on: February 10, 2015, 11:34:27 AM »
Sven and David,

Just so I am clear: Raynor's Prize Dogleg is a hole that Raynor designed based upon entries received by Country Life magazine that Raynor liked. And Raynor built this hole at Lido and other courses. If correct, are the original "designers" of these contest enties unknown?

Mackenzie's hole, #18 at Lido, is one that came from Mackenzie's entry in a later contest that Macdonald encouraged?



Saw this thread and that the Ocean Links and the Lido Competition have been added and wanted to add to the story.

In my research on the Lido Competition and Mackenzie's winning drawing I was drawn to the fact that there was not an entry for Raynor. That and to call your hole the "prize-leg" doesn't sound like it came in second. So, after some digging I found this article that adds to the story at Ocean Links a great deal. First, there is a mention of CBM's involvement. Not sure if this is new as I have not had any time to research the course as I would like.  Second, the article clearly states that the people involved in the course had their own competition that Raynor won and gave us the "Raynor's Prized Dog Leg." I have not found any other mention in greater detail(there is the minor one that Sven posted) of this competition that is so clearly mentioned in this article dated September 12, 1920 Source: The Sun and the New York Herald.
This article adds a lot of background info to the story and only wish they had gone into greater detail describing the 9th hole!!

 Would love to see the other architects involved in the compettion and their drawings if they were ever published!


Regarding the Lido course, prior to the military moving onto the course the then Greenkeeper took numerous photos of the course in hopes that they would be able to "restore"(my words) the course back to its original design. Be nice to find those photos!!


Tully









Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #165 on: February 10, 2015, 11:40:22 AM »
Sean:

If the news reports were indeed correct, and Tailer did have a competition for the 9th hole, does it strike you as peculiar that the hole was so similar to the design submitted in the Country Life contest (which arguably could have been the model for the 6th at Lido)?  It would seem the holes are so similar that even George Bahto considered them to be the same.

Essentially, did Raynor's namesake hole result due to his borrowing concepts first laid to paper by someone else?

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Josh Bills

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #166 on: February 10, 2015, 11:45:28 AM »
A note from September 1943 confirming 4 holes were levelled at Lido near the clubhouse.  (See last paragraph at bottom in bold)



Golfdom September 1943

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #167 on: February 10, 2015, 01:40:52 PM »
Sean: Thanks for posting that. If you look a page or two earlier on the thread you'll see and aerial of the 9th hole after the course had gone fallow.

Ocean Links is one of the courses on which Macdonald consulted. He and friends made the trip over from Long Island for the opening day.

Why is no one commenting on Matt's photo? Does it not show a hole that resembles the heralded one at Lido?

Anthony

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #168 on: February 10, 2015, 01:58:43 PM »
I know Baywood Greens in Delaware isn't everyone's favorite course on GCA, but the course also has a channel-like golf hole (see Google Earth image below). The "safe" route is significantly longer than going for the island fairway; a golfer who hits their drive 225 yards will face a shot of about 180 coming in from the right fairway compared to 150-160 from the left.



I'll take the bait and put my two cents in. Based on two playings I consider this a poor hole based on there not being nearly enough benefit for the risk of hitting the island. The gimmick for the traveling golfer is to go for it, but the difference in my expected score between having 150 or 180 in for my second does not make bringing the big number into play make too much sense.

A par 5 that allows one a real good chance at bringing an eagle into play while significantly making a birdie more likely makes much more sense in my opinion.

Baywood's front 9 is pretty nice in my opinion.

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #169 on: February 10, 2015, 02:07:54 PM »
The one question that I have yet to find any information on is why, so soon after building NGLA on the model of an ideal course, did they build Lido on a much grander scale?

In his write up of an ideal course prior to the creation of NGLA, Macdonald specifically notes 6,000 yards as the magic number, using examples of the great courses he had visited.  How do they tack almost 10% more on?  Sure, there were a couple of new original holes that may have played longer than the holes they substituted in for from NGLA, but that doesn't get you an extra 400 yards.

Even more curious is that they continued to build courses in the 6,000 yard range after Lido.

Knowing what we know about CBM, this break from theory seems out of the norm.

Sven,

I don't know the answer to this one either, maybe he was influenced by the two-shot hole contest.  

The scorecard is full of two-shot holes.  The Lido course had four Par 5's and 4 Par 3's. This would mean all the two shot holes must have come at the expense of some of the drive and pitch holes!  
From the looks of the scorecard, Lido only had three or four drive and pitch holes from the Championship tees.

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #170 on: February 10, 2015, 02:47:38 PM »
Jim:

Thank you for commenting. Never having seen the course it's good to get the input of someone who's played it.

Anthony

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #171 on: February 10, 2015, 02:59:23 PM »
Anthony,

Thanks for posting the aerial of Ocean Links.  That's a great shot!

Bret

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #172 on: February 10, 2015, 03:25:47 PM »
Sean:

If the news reports were indeed correct, and Tailer did have a competition for the 9th hole, does it strike you as peculiar that the hole was so similar to the design submitted in the Country Life contest (which arguably could have been the model for the 6th at Lido)?  It would seem the holes are so similar that even George Bahto considered them to be the same.

Essentially, did Raynor's namesake hole result due to his borrowing concepts first laid to paper by someone else?

Sven

That's a question which has never been debated.

From The Evangelist Of Golf


"The 6th at Lido, a reachable par 5 (493 yards). A Seth Raynor rendition combines two entries in the Country Life magazine design contest."

"Raynor developed the hole from a prize winning submission to the contest in Country Life magazine prior to the construction of Lido GC.:



« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 06:10:48 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #173 on: February 10, 2015, 04:02:50 PM »

Jim(Nugent): I question George's assertion he has a whole lot more about Lido until I see it. I'd also like to know the sources. Why would George hold back the information on a course that ostensibly was as good as National?

Anthony

Wasn't George toying around with the idea of doing a book on Lido?  You're an author - if you planned on writing a book length history of a club you'd probably have a whole lot more information at your fingertips, much of which you wouldn't choose to share here. If you did you'd have nothing new and interesting to write about   ;)

« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 09:31:26 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #174 on: February 10, 2015, 06:43:46 PM »
Sven:

I can't think of an example of anyone reproducing a golf course.

Hypothetically, I wouldn't take the job to build Lido. I don't see the point of building a golf course that is gone just as much as I don't see the point of building a golf course that recreates famous holes from courses most people will never play.

The Lido was the Lido. Anything else is just a copy of Lido and, hypothetically, if I was asked to do it, I wouldn't want to be in the copying business. Realistically, I'd take the job because I'm broke.

I can see recreating a green that, let's say, was destroyed by an asteroid, because that's just one piece of an 18-piece puzzle where 17 pieces are original, but I can't see attempting to recreate an entire course that's been gone for a half century on an entirely different site. Then again, I'm not a golf course developer trying to come up with devices to attract customers.

What I wonder is what if the Lido was going to be faithfully rebuilt by an architect who is considered one of the great unwashed by the GCA crowd in conjunction with a Las Vegas casino or a Thailand, would people here would still be all for it? Maybe the better question would be, what if one of the unwashed did, in fact, recreate the Lido in stunning fashion and it was in Thailand, how would people react?

Anthony

I'm not sure I see enough difference between the prospect of transplanting the Lido and restoring a once-storied course on its original site (which happens a lot lately) that it would be vulgar or beneath a given architect's talents to attempt it.

It seems that, at the least, the Lido was one of the world's great designs during its day. Given the fact that the company it kept (according to Darwin and Ross, anyway) is still regarded as among the best of the best, why would the prospect of being responsible for reviving one of the world's great designs be something other than a near-dream scenario for an architect that has done a number of restorations of classic courses?
Senior Writer, GolfPass

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