Lido - A Redux

[Charlie Goerges]

On one hand, it was disappointing to know I had no chance and resign myself to aiming 50 feet left of a pin.

I'm not as good a player as you, so for you, that 50 feet from the hole is a pretty likely par I'd bet. Is par not a good score on a hard hole? That said, I can understand some frustration where you do the best you're capable of and it just doesn't cut it. That's how mid-high handicappers feel almost every round on a few holes at least.

[Joe Zucker]

On one hand, it was disappointing to know I had no chance and resign myself to aiming 50 feet left of a pin.

I'm not as good a player as you, so for you, that 50 feet from the hole is a pretty likely par I'd bet. Is par not a good score on a hard hole? That said, I can understand some frustration where you do the best you're capable of and it just doesn't cut it. That's how mid-high handicappers feel almost every round on a few holes at least.

That's fair point. Certainly some low handicap privilege on my part (that Tom noted) in thinking I should be able to hit every shot.  As an analytical person who mostly ascribes to the modern data approach to golf, I know that leaving myself 50 feet often will eventually bite me.


I take my medicine a lot and even on wet US courses it's not uncommon to intentionally leave myself far from the hole.  However, this felt like a theme on the Lido to a degree I have not experienced on any other course.

[Bill Seitz]

I find Joe's comments interesting under the assumption that he played it with modern clubs, because I felt much the same after having played approximately 4.5 rounds there with my hickories a few weeks ago.  Just some pins you aren't going to get anywhere near.  The pin described on #3 was one where I deliberately hit one short and left to at least give myself a chance to putt somewhere near the hole.  Two holes earlier I hit what felt like a perfect mashie-niblick that landed just on the front of the green, only to walk up and see two balls, neither of which were mine, which had rolled some 80+ feet into the back bunker.  I'm itching to play it with moderns to see how different, and how similar, some of those shots play.

[Joe Zucker]

Bill, I can confirm I did play with modern equipment. 


Having thought about it for another week, I think this characteristic is just another feature that makes the Lido an interesting puzzle.  I play away from pins all the time, but never to the extreme degree that appears to be needed at the Lido.  I hope to play it again and see how I handle it on a different day.

[John_Cullum]

Does their logo merchandise say "THE LIDO" Very high brow if so.

[Matthew Lloyd]

Does their logo merchandise say "THE LIDO" Very high brow if so.

Everything I saw just said “Lido”


They have some great items in that pro shop. Wish I had a larger budget. The dog collar was a nice touch.

[Tom_Doak]

I find Joe's comments interesting under the assumption that he played it with modern clubs, because I felt much the same after having played approximately 4.5 rounds there with my hickories a few weeks ago.  Just some pins you aren't going to get anywhere near.  The pin described on #3 was one where I deliberately hit one short and left to at least give myself a chance to putt somewhere near the hole.  Two holes earlier I hit what felt like a perfect mashie-niblick that landed just on the front of the green, only to walk up and see two balls, neither of which were mine, which had rolled some 80+ feet into the back bunker.  I'm itching to play it with moderns to see how different, and how similar, some of those shots play.

Bill [and Joe]:


Can you quantify how many pins you saw out of 18 that there was almost no way to get close?  Just curious as to how many it takes to set off alarm bells.  (Asking for a friend, of course.)

[Bill Seitz]

Bill [and Joe]:


Can you quantify how many pins you saw out of 18 that there was almost no way to get close?  Just curious as to how many it takes to set off alarm bells.  (Asking for a friend, of course.)

With hickories?  All of them! 


Kidding, but it's really firm, so anything short is going to be tough to get close to, though I think on the whole them seemed a little more bounce it in friendly than I remember the Loop, but that was six years or so ago.  We had a couple weird days with little to no wind whatsoever, and I think the wind could play a big factor in holding those greens.  On 15 I hit one into the middle bunker off the tee, had to just pop it out, and then hit either a mashie or mid-iron to a back left pin about four feet and made par, but that was into a touch of breeze which held the ball up.  Anything where you needed to land the ball on the green was going to be tough if the pin was front to middle.  Eight is already a hard hole, but getting anything close to a pin on the front third needed a bit of luck to hit the mound in exactly the right way.  17 seemed like it should have been difficult with the green sloping away, but we actually had the ball stop there a little quicker than expected.


One thing I like was whatever grass constituted the "rough" around the greens.  It wasn't cut much longer than fairway height, but the ball really sat up on it, and made recoveries, even when you needed to go over a big slope, pretty doable. 


Tom, do you expect the Lido to play as firm after as many years as the Loop presumably still plays today?  I never played Kingsley until 2011, but I hear it was rock hard when it opened and softened as it matured.  I expected the Loop to do the same, but from the sounds of it, that hasn't happened.  I will say, the sound of the ball hitting the green at Lido is like nothing I've heard before.

[Joe Zucker]

Tom, good question.  I played over 2 months ago, so I'll do my best to remember.  I think the pins fall into 3 categories for me: (1) Accessible (2) Technically reachable, but not in a predictable fashion (in my opinion) (3) Accessible only to pros


1 - Played straight downwind withe pin front right.  I put this into category 2.  I don't know how reliable I would be able to run a shot within 20-30 feet of that hole.  Perhaps it's a shot I don't have because I'm never asked to hit it elsewhere.
2 - Pin 30-40 feet on in the front left - Category 1
3 - Back right - Category 3
4 - Front right - Green was steep enough back to the fairway that balls held well - Category 1
5 - Pin way to the front right.  Every shot seems to kick way down into the middle of the green or over. I can't see how you would hit it with in 40 feet because if you played short and right it would kick hard off the slope - Category 3
6 - I don't remember, so I assume it didn't stick in my craw - Category 1
7 - Upper left tier - Tough for me to see how you stop it on that tier.  I saw one ball land up their and bound over. Seems like you have to play to the middle of that green - Category 2
8 - Middle left - Category 1
9 - Back left corner. 6 paces from the edge. Absolutely must play 20-30 feet right of this pin especially with the wind helping off the right. Category 2
10 - Front left, impossible to keep the ball in the low bowl. Category 3
11 - Front right, playing downwind.  I eventually learned my lesson here and hit a rolling PW from 90 yards that got onto the front edge about 15 feet from the hole.  Definitely possible, but so much of this shot is left to random bounces.  A classic example of what good players hate because it negates their skill. Category 2
12 - 20 paces on in the front right. All balls ended up in the back left corner of the bowl. Category 2 (maybe 3?)
13 - Front left over the bunker. Any ball that carries onto the greens seems destined to be 40 feet past. Category 3
14 - Middle left. I hit what I thought was a good shot and it landed pin high and hopped over into the trap.  Category 2
15 - I don't remember. Category 1
16 - Back left. Category 1
17 - Back middle. Category 1
18 - Back left. Category 1


Category 1 - 8, so almost half were accessible by my own definition
Category 2 - 6, accessible but only with a shot that has some randomness to it or has a into you to slow down the ball
Category 3 - 4 where I think only a pro could get it within 20 feet


After going through this exercise, perhaps this is a good balance?  As I said before, the Lido tests a mental muscle that I really never use and it was uncomfortable. That's probably not a bad thing.

[Tommy Williamsen]

My caddie figured out my game by the second hole. He would say, "With the location of the pin, hit it there. It will give you the best chance to get it close." Generally, it was a line I would not have picked. Lido is one of those courses that reveals itself reluctantly. Without a good caddie, it would be difficult.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Curious what others think — and whether their reaction is similar to mine — upon reading these people's reactions to Lido (WI):

The Lido (Doak’s version) might be the most overrated course I’ve ever played. A soulless, contrived, manufactured replica of what was undoubtedly originally a very good course on Long Island sound. It unfortunately does not translate to a flat field of sand in the middle of rural Wisconsin. I’d rather play every other course on property twice than Lido once, personally. Everyone should play it once to form their own opinion, of course.

Someone else replying in support of the first opinion:

The point he’s making, and I agree, is that the original lido was by all accounts a great golf course but by replicating it and in the process severing it’s context to time and place, they’ve produced something much worse.
It’s a great course and a Doak zero.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Curious what others think — and whether their reaction is similar to mine — upon reading these people's reactions to Lido (WI)

People need to get over themselves. It's a fantastic course.

Beyond the golf, it is extremely interesting just as a proof of concept. The feasibility of using lidar on ecologically sensitive linksland, to then build courses -- ones that that we really shouldn't for environmental reasons -- but recreating them elsewhere is a fantastic idea. If that strikes some people as inauthentic in a problematic way... I just think we're going to disagree on priorities. 

[Daryl David]

It is special course no matter what originated the idea. Kudos to Tom and his team for their work and to Michael K. for having the courage to create it. People should just enjoy it. It is fantastic.

[Joe Zucker]

Agree with Daryl and Matt.  As someone who had some criticisms of it in this thread, do I think it's overrated? Yes.  Do I think it's a really good course that everyone should play? Yes.


To give the critic in Erik's message the benefit of the doubt, he's probably right that the course loses something from being removed from Long Island.  But that doesn't mean the work Tom and Peter Flory did is not remarkable and worthwhile. 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Y'all went a slightly different direction than I thought you might… the original Lido was both contrived and flat, and as almost a literal while slightly updated (for spacing and modern golf), the "replica" had to be as well. It also doesn't meet the definition of a Doak 0. Etc.

[Tom_Doak]

Haters gonna hate, but I can’t see how the new Lido is any more contrived than the original.


Where are you getting these comments?  David Kidd’s Instagram fan club? 😂

[Tim_Weiman]

Haters gonna hate, but I can’t see how the new Lido is any more contrived than the original.


Where are you getting these comments?  David Kidd’s Instagram fan club? 😂

Tom,


I still haven’t made it to the Lido, but based on input from Paul Rudovsky suspect my reaction will not be that it is “contrived”. Rather, I think it will be a bit like playing St. Andrews Beach, which is all about the actual golf shots and not views of the nearby ocean.


Tim

[Tommy Williamsen]

Fascinating discussion, and I don't understand some of the criticism. Of course, Lido is manufactured, but I think it adds to the wonder. Given a blank canvas, who in the world envisions the humps and bumps and differing lines onto the fairways and into the greens?


I walked off the course and thought to myself, "Wow, this is one of the best courses I have ever played. I'd love to go back out and try some different lines off the tee." I am 77 years old and recently had hand surgery. I played the green/white tees at about 6200 yards. I had a caddie that figured out my game very quickly. We would stand on the tee, and he would offer a couple of different options. I generally chose the safer route because I wanted to break 80. I got some bounces that caused some grief, but that is golf. It is a cerebral course, and if the golfer does not choose his lines wisely, he will pay for it. Sometimes, the penalties are severe. The course demands good shot selection and good execution.

[Niall C]

Tommy


You say it's a cerebral course - who for, you or your caddy ?


Niall

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy


You say it's a cerebral course - who for, you or your caddy ?


Niall

For both. He lays out the options. I choose the one I feel gives me the best chance to make par or better.

[Bill Seitz]

Haters gonna hate, but I can’t see how the new Lido is any more contrived than the original.


Where are you getting these comments?  David Kidd’s Instagram fan club? 😂

They're from avid golfers who (mostly) aren't architecture nerds.  There's a very small bit of crossover to this place.  I would say most people are not in agreement, but many have found Lido frustrating (less so now that there are yardage books), which is probably the point. 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Where are you getting these comments?  David Kidd’s Instagram fan club? 😂

The NLU forum. 😀 (Behind the paywall unfortunately.)

And I think I replied to the first comment about it being contrived and flat with something like "Irony is lost on y'all. 🤣"

[Tom_Doak]

Haters gonna hate, but I can’t see how the new Lido is any more contrived than the original.

Where are you getting these comments?  David Kidd’s Instagram fan club? 😂

They're from avid golfers who (mostly) aren't architecture nerds.  There's a very small bit of crossover to this place.  I would say most people are not in agreement, but many have found Lido frustrating (less so now that there are yardage books), which is probably the point.

Ah.  Well, somewhere up there, C.B. Macdonald is smiling at their ignorance.  So I must have done something right 😉


But, I really don’t understand why those NLU guys make everything personal - everything is written as if I’m trying to make them look bad.  (I have not read or watched much of their content, apart from their videos on Pacific Dunes and The Loop, which a couple of friends sent to me.)  I don’t really know them at all, and 3/4 of the stuff they imagine I’m thinking is wrong.  It’s never occurred to them to ask me, though.

[Bill Seitz]

Haters gonna hate, but I can’t see how the new Lido is any more contrived than the original.

Where are you getting these comments?  David Kidd’s Instagram fan club? 😂

They're from avid golfers who (mostly) aren't architecture nerds.  There's a very small bit of crossover to this place.  I would say most people are not in agreement, but many have found Lido frustrating (less so now that there are yardage books), which is probably the point.

Ah.  Well, somewhere up there, C.B. Macdonald is smiling at their ignorance.  So I must have done something right 😉


But, I really don’t understand why those NLU guys make everything personal - everything is written as if I’m trying to make them look bad.  (I have not read or watched much of their content, apart from their videos on Pacific Dunes and The Loop, which a couple of friends sent to me.)  I don’t really know them at all, and 3/4 of the stuff they imagine I’m thinking is wrong.  It’s never occurred to them to ask me, though.

Should clarify, it's not THE NLU guys (Soly, Tron, etc.).  These are just people who post on their (paywalled) message board.  Generally a good group of people who are probably more knowledgeable about golf than most weekenders, and guys who travel and have seen a lot of good golf courses, but aren't quite as into or knowledgeable about the architecture aspect relative to this place, on average.  There's not a large rater base like there is here, for better or worse.  There's a pretty heavy crossover with people who listen to Fried Egg podcasts, though, so I gather many of them have heard a lot of your interviews with Andy.

[Joe Zucker]

Bill is spot on with NLU.  I don't know the specifics of this NLU comment and I'm sure Tom has a point on their criticism of his work.  But overall, NLU is firmly on "our" side of the golf world. They love St. Andrews and Scotland.  They love courses that promote waking.  They are in favor of a ball rollback, in spite of being sponsored by Titleist. 


Every one of of would disagree with them on particular things, but the main NLU crew definitely views golf much more closely to this group's collective ideal than the average player.  They are pushing golf more in our direction than probably any media outlet in the world.