News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Width is over rated
« on: February 06, 2015, 09:53:28 AM »
I generally do not like to begin what seems to be a negative thread. But I have grown weary of the seemingly and endless array of threads bemoaning tight fairways and praising width. Width only really matters when the shot into the green has many different playing options.  For instance the fifth hole at Ballyhack is miles wide. I understand the reasons. I like to play down the left side of that fairway.  I like the angle better, get a flatter lie, and tend to get the ball closer to the pin from there.  Most guys either go right or hit it down the middle.  Width there makes sense.  The same can be true of the par five number two. It is at least as wide as five, with whom it shares the fairway. Players that want a go at the green in two tend to want to hit the tee shot further to the right, while shorter hitters like me tend to go left.  Again I get a flatter lie and the lay up is easier.  On the other hand both 11&12 require straight tee shots.  Angles into those  greens are less important.  

I think a lot of guys want wide fairways because they can't get find the fairway off the tee.  Learn to hit the ball straighter. If you are wild off the tee you don't always deserve to be in the fairway. The same can be true for many parkland courses. Many were designed where angles aren't as important.  They demand straight tee shots. I've played most of the links courses in GB&I and agree that width makes sense.  The wind is a big factor and most greens can offer many different options depending on where the pin is. They were designed for width. For touring pros angles don't matter as much. They hit the ball so high with so much spin they can go pin hunting no matter where the pin is.  I will often hear a commentator announce, "It is going to be difficult for XX to get close to the pin because he is on the wrong side of the fairway," only to have him knock it stony.  One of the reasons I like Ballyhack is Lester has a good balance between tighter holes where you need to hit the fairway and holes that have lot of width where the green offers many options for the second shot.  

Not every hole needs width off the tee.  Sean and Tom Doak have marked Beau Desert down because it is "choked by trees."  I love it because you need to hit the ball straight and the second shots still want you to be on the better side of the fairway.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 09:56:44 AM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2015, 09:55:17 AM »
Define fairway, please.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2015, 09:58:35 AM »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2015, 10:00:40 AM »
Tommy-it could be in cases but.....

I can't tell you how many pros I played with at Streamsong the last couple days who said
"you can hit it anywhere off the tee"
AND "there are too many unfair approaches"
hmmmm...


The other great thing about the width of SS is that most playing there in the winter are rusty, and you're spending the day searching and/or dropping. An errant drive might lead to a difficult approach, or a deep bunker, but it doesn't result in ball hunting.
One earns their doubles ;D

It's more a case of death by a series of paper cuts for the errant driver than bleeding to death from a razor
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 01:02:39 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2015, 10:02:59 AM »
How short?

Does a municipal course mowing their corridors at three-quarters of an inch not have any fairway because the private club down the road can mow theirs under half inch?

Wouldn't "through the green" be a bit more in line with your line of thinking?

Is the split between whether or not one can get a club on a ball or not, for whichever reason?

If that's the case, couldn't whatever it is you're trying to prove with the golf course be accomplished by target shooting on a driving range?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2015, 10:07:06 AM »
I am with you Tommy. The game is about hitting the ball in the right place and that mainly means straight. Strategy and correct lines in to the green are almost defunct with modern greens and equipment and only relevant to lesser players or under very firm and fast conditions. Nature will decide that 75% of the time in the UK you can't have F&F.

IMO a 35 yard fairway within a 70 yard corridor is about what you want. Probably most UK fairways are 30 yards wide. Outside of 70 yard width you can lose your ball.

In the perfect world of F&F conditions width can work.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2015, 10:12:16 AM »
I love strategic width, but I also like width for width's sake.  I'm bad at golf, and I hit the ball terribly offline.  I'm at the age and point in my life and career where I don't have the time to commit to learning to hit the ball straighter as Tommy wants us all to do.  I'm not looking for sympathy.  I don't have a burning desire to improve right now.  I play to have fun.  Width helps me accomplish this.  

The width at my home course is actually very strategic on most holes as Jeff mentioned at Streamsong, so it may not fall into the offending category that Tommy raises here.  Nonetheless I would still prefer the width if it wasn't strategic.  The people playing behind me prefer a wide course as well, I assure you.  

And I don't really care if it is fairway or playable short rough.  I just want a lot of width before the tall grass, water, OB, lines of trees, etc come into play.  I'm actually glad there is variety out there.  We can all be happy.  Tommy can go play in the narrow chutes and I will go play the wide open ones.  

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2015, 10:28:27 AM »
Wind is under rated.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2015, 10:32:55 AM »
And overly expensive to maintain.

As for strategy off the tee, most I know pick their target after its landed rather than before they hit....

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2015, 10:39:20 AM »
Tommy,

Increased width, even if it presents little strategic value is good for the game by speeding up the game (less searching for stray balls) & making the game a little easier for everyone, but most importantly those who need a little help breaking 90, 100 or more.  If well designed, increased width can promote the above while still ensuring the game is a challenge for scratch golfers who need to find the ideal place to attack a certain hole location.

We need to be promoting design & maintenance that makes the game more enjoyable & inclusive as golf attempts to attract more players.  Faster golf is good for the game.  Easier golf is good as well.

TK


Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2015, 10:44:32 AM »
Tommy,

Tyler beat me to it, but I will add that width often equates to fun golf. Being able to put the club face on the ball time after time is much better, in my opinion, than punch outs, lost balls and penalty strokes.

Having said that, when it comes time to test the best golfers in the world, width can be overdone. For those who play that kind of game, variety(in the width sense) is a better way to keep them on their toes.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2015, 10:45:29 AM »
Sven, agree 100% wrt wind.  

Width is a double edged sword.  Obviously, it's easier to hit a more wide fairway.  Yet, if you "get away with it", you likely find yourself facing an impossible angle but atleast from a good lie.  For me, width is a mental challenge as you still need to hit the proper line.  I tend to get seduced by width.  I think it makes me lazy, and I pay the price with frustrating bad scores with solid fairways hit.  With width, I also tend to play driver almost everywhere.  Tighter courses require 3 wood or even a long iron.

In both wide, and tight, strategy and execution are required to score.  


Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2015, 10:48:20 AM »
In the last couple of years, friend Scott Weersing & I, make a trek once a year to Williamsburg to tee it up at RTJ Sr Golden Horsehoe Gold course.  Yes, way too narrow and the property is a bit cramped and the runway tees are all a thing of the past, but we both like it.  It provides a difficult and different challenge, but I find I can get used to it.  I think the we all find a way of (eventually) rising (or accepting) to the challenge presented.

I prefer it to the courses with a constant 2 club wind.  (Yes, the Bandons exist in their own special universe.)

Tommy, hole 9 at Ballyhack needs more width on its second shot for the shorter hitter, particulary when playing into the wind.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 11:16:25 AM by Carl Rogers »
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2015, 10:56:29 AM »
Tommy,

I guess I would want to understand what you consider wide?  What is ideal?  What is narrow?  All - Generally speaking.

IT sounds like you are a better golfer.  My handicap hovers between 1-3.5 at any given time and I seem to play a lot with customers who are usually 15-25's, my wife who just learned the game 4 years ago (36 handicap) and my son who averages in the low 50's at age 10.  At my club, my favorite group is made up of 8-14's.  The low handicappers want 2:40 min rounds and grind over every shot.  If they shoot 80, they have a meltdown.  I like to have fun, so outside of a few club events, I prefer to play with mid handicappers and my family.  

Golf is very hard for most people.  With perfect path (at 90-95 mph) and 1.5 degree open club face, physics say the result is a 24 yard miss.  To hit a 30-35 yard fairway, which sounds like what you prefer, the average guy would have to line up a good 15 yards left to bring the ball back in provided he keeps perfect path and only leaves his club face open slightly (a tough ask of a once per week golfer).  Considering most courses with 30-35 yard fairways don't have a large rough buffer 12-20 yards and in most cases, line the sides with trees (with many I have seen hanging over fairways), the difficulty for the player I am describing is high.  

The standard retort is, "take lessons, learn to hit the ball better, etc. etc", but I need these people to subsidize my dues/green fees, as do you.

No, I don't really have a good time when the fairways are 60-80 yards wide with no slope and the greens are flat as pancakes (I can name 10 courses in the Myrtle Beach area that are this way), but I love what Mike Strantz did with Caledonia, True Blue, and Tobacco Road.  Those courses satisfy everyone.  My buddies who play sub 40 rounds per year hit fairways and are around the greens, but usually don't light the course up, while I pick the aggressive routes and have more fun than on the Batan-straight-death-marches it sounds like you prefer.  

Golf should be fun.  Missing fairways and struggling doesn't keep people in the game.  I'm not for lowering the bar, but you can have width and still make it 'hard'.  







Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2015, 10:58:16 AM »
Here it is...THE definitive narrative on the strategic value of width.  From the lips (or finger tips) of the illustrious Mark B., saved on my hard drive forever.

Width and angles are not design “values” and therefore have little to no inherent worth; rather, they, along with big greens, enable the design value of equifinality. (Well, there is one aspect of design where width can be considered a value; to keep things simple I’ll cover it later.)

I define a “value” as something inherently good or bad at the most elemental level: a) it does not depend on something else for us determine its worth, usefulness, or any way you choose to measure utility, and b) it cannot be reduced into other values or “enablers” of values. Values form the heart of design philosophy. Therefore you can think of them as criteria for judging a course as well as a goal the designer sets out to achieve in building a course. (This is the efficacy vs efficiency point I made in an earlier post; efficacy for whether you agree this is a worthy value and for how much the course in question embraces it, and efficiency for how well the course lives up to the value.)

I define an “enabler” as something that enables a value or values to be expressed in the design. Without enablers, the value cannot be expressed, but the enablers themselves are not the values. Why not? Because their “value” is contingent upon other, more elemental things, namely values. Also because inherently they cannot be judged for quality without referring to actual values.
I define “equifinality” to mean a situation where multiple paths to a solution exist. Or: there are many ways to skin a cat. In the context of GCA, this means all the different ways to earn a par / win a hole. Equifinality means a golfer can take a variety of routes on a hole to hole out.  
At its heart, clearly this is not my concept – I first understood it from Alister Mackenzie’s descriptions of TOC’s 4th, 10th and especially 14th holes. He called it “alternate routes.” What I am trying to capture that is different is the relationships among, equifinality, values and enablers.

Enablers of equifinality: width and large greens. To enable golfers of many different skills to take routes to the green appropriate to their games, you need width. But wide playing corridors just for the sake of width makes for a boring course – thus, again, we see that width cannot be a value. You need a goal – that would be the green, of course – but that goal, while attainable for all, needs to retain challenge for all, even / especially the skilled golfer.

Normally, to challenge the truly skilled you’d default not to wide and big but narrow and small, right? Small greens surrounded by trouble. But well-designed big greens present their own challenges – especially if they require the better golfer to take certain routes through the green. Well-placed challenges around the green as well as through the green – the “line of charm” – partly accomplish that. All that’s left is to find places to locate the holes that “unlock” the ideal angles for the better player.

Royal Melbourne is an excellent example of how to design big greens for that purpose. RM’s greens have all sorts of wings that serve to reduce the effective target area for the better golfer. A flag tucked on a wing, located behind a bunker, is a terror to the better player. The rest of us just aim for the middle of a huge green, no problem. Unsurprisingly, Pinehurst #2 and TOC accomplish similar feats (in their own, unique, sui generis ways).

This brings up second value enabled by width and large greens: variety. By moving the hole locations you change the playing of the hole. But think about it: for angles to really matter you need to move the holes a lot. And when you are able to move the holes a lot, you have to have width, massive width really, to “unlock” the angles.


This is how Meadow Club inspired my thinking: a very good course, the trees lining the playing corridors block many angles that otherwise would be enabled by the course’s large greens. This is the magic of double fairways – by sharing fairways, the designer is able to unlock angles without needing a million acres. Conservatism of design. And so I enjoyed Meadow Club greatly, a fantastic place to play, but in the end I sort of think of it as a “noble failure.” Note that doesn’t mean it’s a failure but rather the bold design was ultimately too bold. I hope we can forgive Mackenzie and Hunter for neglecting the impact of lawyers.

PS Where width could be called a design value is for what we might call “playability.” If the goal is to enable a golfer to play an entire round without losing a ball, then width becomes a value.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2015, 11:01:25 AM »
Tommy,
I will grant you two things, 1) width for the sake of width is a waste and only adds costs, and 2) not every hole needs width.  Having said that, width in almost every other case creates options and options create interest, and interest is one of the things that helps make a great golf course.  Width is far more than just angles of play (and unbeknownst to some) it doesn't always make things easier.  Width influences shot shape, club selection, next shot selection, hazard value, hazard placement, … the list goes on.  Adequate width ensures that the course will express its character under all seasonal and playing conditions.  

One of the most important things we do when restoring an old golf course (really any golf course) is add back width that has been lost over the years.  Golf courses/features tend to shrink over time and in almost every situation, restoring that width makes for a better, more interesting and more challenging golf course.  If I had time I could talk on this topic for a long time but I think you get my drift!  

You are going to lose this debate :)
Mark
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 11:03:23 AM by Mark_Fine »

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2015, 11:12:21 AM »
Tommy

I was with you right up until you starting making an exception for links courses. Can I respectfully suggest that if you can’t keep a driver in play on a windy day on a links that you instead take a 3 wood, or rescue club, or long iron or whatever club keeps you in play. If that means you are taking three shots rather than two shots to get up then so be it. Think of it as strategy or alternatively risk reward if you successfully use the driver.

There’s no golden rule that says you have to take a driver off the tee.

Niall

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2015, 11:14:22 AM »
Sven, agree 100% wrt wind.  

Width is a double edged sword.  Obviously, it's easier to hit a more wide fairway.  Yet, if you "get away with it", you likely find yourself facing an impossible angle but atleast from a good lie.  For me, width is a mental challenge as you still need to hit the proper line.  I tend to get seduced by width.  I think it makes me lazy, and I pay the price with frustrating bad scores with solid fairways hit.  With width, I also tend to play driver almost everywhere.  Tighter courses require 3 wood or even a long iron.

In both wide, and tight, strategy and execution are required to score.  



Tommy,

Chris makes a great point about width inducing some mental laziness in golfers who have been conditioned to hit fairways.  Extreme width, if executed properly still forces players to find the right 10 yard strip of an 80 yard fairway to give an easier approach.  This type of design and set-up can bogey a good player to death and can lead to surprisingly high scores, given the number of shots played from short-grass.  Further, fairway lies are physically easier for everybody, and also allow for more shot options and quicker golf.

TK  

Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2015, 11:17:32 AM »
Sven, agree 100% wrt wind.  

Width is a double edged sword.  Obviously, it's easier to hit a more wide fairway.  Yet, if you "get away with it", you likely find yourself facing an impossible angle but atleast from a good lie.  For me, width is a mental challenge as you still need to hit the proper line.  I tend to get seduced by width.  I think it makes me lazy, and I pay the price with frustrating bad scores with solid fairways hit.  With width, I also tend to play driver almost everywhere.  Tighter courses require 3 wood or even a long iron.

In both wide, and tight, strategy and execution are required to score.  



This isn't necessarily bad because it leads to an option on the second shot. Should you hit the heroic shot or layup? A layup with a good chip and put is good and it's fun.

High handicap golfers need some width. I don't need a 70 yard wide fairway but I'll find few if they are 30 yards wide. With decent rough that's going to make for a miserable day even from the correct tees.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2015, 11:27:16 AM »
Based on the evidence that 80-90% (?) of the courses in this country are too narrow for the average player due to lack of short grass, real estate, encroaching trees, water hazards etc. I think it's a pretty tall order to argue that width is over rated.  Over priced perhaps.  Just take the ball flight and dispersion pattern of your average 18 hdcp. and superimpose it on virtually any course and see how many fairways he/she hits in reg.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 11:29:08 AM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2015, 11:27:21 AM »
Tommy

You have given an example of a course you believe is wide enough, Beau Desert.  I fundamentally disagree because of the importance the recovery shot should have, slowing the game down and reducing the fun factor for many.  We shall have to agree to disagree on this one.  But before I depart, I can hardly think of a course I believe to be overly wide/forgiving off the tee.  Where are all these courses with excessive width?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Peter Pallotta

Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2015, 11:29:03 AM »
You're right, Tommy.

We've become so enamoured by width and by architects who provide us with a steady diet of it that we tend to wrack our brains and strain our vocabulary to find ways to praise the (supposed) options and angles and strategy that we (apparently) find EVERYWHERE on such courses. Like blaming clients and environmental restrictions and, worst of all the likes/limitations of "the average golfer", I think the presence of width can be used by architects as an excuse to cover a multitude of their own failings and sins, including lack of imagination, poor planning (in the approach-to-green relationship), and a blatant pandering to the most populists of tastes and the most dictatorial of prevailing conventions and consensus opinions. Every time I read about all these "choices" our brethren here are (apparently) having to make on all these great wide courses, I get an overwhelming desire to take a whole bunch of us out to Olympic to get our asses kicked by some canted and tree-lined fairways. At the very least we'd come back with a healthy and humble new regard for the old adage that necessity ("I can't hit a 30 yard fairway if my life depended on it") is the mother of invention ("Hey, look at that -- I think I see a choice/option here, maybe I can pretend I'm good enough to execute it").  

Grumble-ly yours,

Peter
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 11:35:03 AM by PPallotta »

Brent Hutto

Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2015, 11:32:11 AM »
Paging Mr. Warne,

Someone needs to step in and extoll the manifold benefits of 3/4" roughs.

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2015, 11:32:35 AM »


I think a lot of guys want wide fairways because they can't get find the fairway off the tee.

Definitely this is true - sometimes it fits under the headline of playability for all levels and indeed speeding up round time.

Learn to hit the ball straighter.

Sounds like a comment a scratch player who does not understand how difficult the game really is would make to a 36 hcp'er. While your at hit learn to hit it 100 yds further and learn to fade, draw etc at will. Why stop there?

If you are wild off the tee you don't always deserve to be in the fairway.

Here I agree and that's probably why hcp's exist in the first place.

The same can be true for many parkland courses. Many were designed where angles aren't as important.  

Yes they were designed poorly. Please list your top 10 courses that were designed where no angles were important. Sounds like mundane target golf with a lack of design features. However, your list may prove me wrong....or not.

They demand straight tee shots. I've played most of the links courses in GB&I and agree that width makes sense.  The wind is a big factor and most greens can offer many different options depending on where the pin is. They were designed for width. For touring pros angles don't matter as much.

Disagree with this. Maybe with regards to parkland courses that are designed without them and only use length as the main challenge. I'd say Pinehurst and Merion and every single British Open prove this wrong for starters.

I'm certain you would love my home course. It's narrow, long, tough and certainly not for everyone. I'll even give you the break 80 from the back tees bet. You succeed and I buy the drinks. You don't, and you can join the legends of others who have tried and failed.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width is over rated
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2015, 11:37:43 AM »
Narrow fws due to mowing patterns are are one thing. Narrow targets due to architectural intent is another.


Narrow mowing practices do nothing but dictate to all levels of players one defined way to play the hole. Often, that dictation is done by a greenskeeper who either knows nothing about strategy in general or design intent of the architect.


The narrow mowing practices in America became in fashion in the post WWII U.S. Open setups. This coincided with appearance of the machine like play of Ben Hogan. His approach to play fascinated the golf world then and subsequently  influenced course setup and modern course design, and that mystique continues even to this day. We are just now starting to move away from that course set up formula, and that is a good thing.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back