The 2015 Midwest Mashie - Minnesota - FINAL RECAP AND OBSERVATIONS

[Jason Topp]

One other shot of note was Scott Skorupa banking his 'pitch'  off a Silo 40 yards behind this green to about 30 ft -- he just missed the putt or it would have been the most extraordinary up and down I've seen.

I have been told that the silo comes into play but have never seen someone come close.  Glad to hear someone put it to good use!

[Dan Kelly]

The weekend confirmed my infatuation with Midland Hills ...

Come around more often, Buck, and you will find your infatuation becoming true love.

That is what I found, at any rate. The more I play it, the more I love it, and by no means just the holes you cite. Even after three full years, I am still seeing new hole locations all over the course, revealing new charms of Raynor's design.

As for number 1, that is of course not a Raynor hole at all. And its green looks nothing like a Raynor green. Nor does the greenside bunker. And the green is the one green on the course that is consistently lousy. It is not just number one on the course; it is number one on the renovation agenda, albeit currently out of reach of the budget.

In the meantime, we will continue to remove un-useful , unhealthy and unattractive trees, rebuild the steep faced bunkers, firm up the approaches, and look for a couple dozen new members.

[Matthew Sander]

As for number 1, that is of course not a Raynor hole at all. And its green looks nothing like a Raynor green. Nor does the greenside bunker. And the green is the one green on the course that is consistently lousy. It is not just number one on the course; it is number one on the renovation agenda, albeit currently out of reach of the

Dan,


Ignore the budgetary constraints. All you need is a Sunday afternoon in November, a few spades and shovels, a case of beer, and a gaggle of well-meaning architecture hobbyists. Do you know of any, by chance?

[Dan Kelly]

As for number 1, that is of course not a Raynor hole at all. And its green looks nothing like a Raynor green. Nor does the greenside bunker. And the green is the one green on the course that is consistently lousy. It is not just number one on the course; it is number one on the renovation agenda, albeit currently out of reach of the

Dan,


Ignore the budgetary constraints. All you need is a Sunday afternoon in November, a few spades and shovels, a case of beer, and a gaggle of well-meaning architecture hobbyists. Do you know of any, by chance?

Matt --


I'd be perfectly willing to invest some sweat equity into the project ... but according to the testimony of our longtime head pro, still serving on the Green Committee, that is how we got the current green, bunker, and surrounding mounding.


I don't think "well-meaning" cuts it!


Dan

[Jason Topp]

Dan - has there ever been any thought of going back to the original green on 9?  It confuses me why the new one is considered an improvement.

[Dan Kelly]

Dan - has there ever been any thought of going back to the original green on 9?  It confuses me why the new one is considered an improvement.

Jason --


I don't think so.


And I don't see how either of us could know which was the better green, since that practice green that remains is *not* the original green, but just part of the original green (and lacking the original's bunkers). All we know is that it is located where the original green was.


I also don't know why they decided, way back when, that they needed a new green. I'll try to find out. I can only speculate, at this point, that they thought players on the 1st tee would be safer with the green farther away. (Did someone on the original 6, the Short, get beaned? And was he on the Green Committee?)


The "new" 9 green was, I've been told, designed to emulate the original. See the 1937 aerial at http://www.mhccturf.com/?p=398 (our superintendent Mike Manthey's blog), and you will see that the original green (which was then hole 5) had bunkers at more or less the same spots as the current bunkers, and the green has a similar shape -- though, perhaps significantly, the deeper back of the old green was on the right side (downhill), and the deeper back of the current green is on the left (uphill). I'm guessing, just from the shape and the topography, that that original green had a bit of a reverse Redan quality, feeding balls to the right.


Of course, the current green does exactly the same thing. It feeds *everything* to the right.


Personally, I think the current green complex is a really good one, rewarding aggressive shots well-played and leaving *really* difficult putts for both cautious plays (big sweeping uphill putts) and over-aggressive approaches (screaming sweeping downhill putts and chips).


Plus, I love the reverse-cant optical illusion. Even those of us who have played the course many, many times tend to miss our putts on the low side.


What don't you like about it?


Dan

[Jason Topp]

What don't you like about it?
Dan

Having it feed like a reverse redan makes sense to me although the advantage of having it angled the way it is now is that it opens up with a more aggressive line off the tee.
Now, as you state, the angle is in the other direction and feels to me like a Nicklaus green perched on a sidehill.  It has a very modern feeling to it that is very different from the other greens on the course.  I find it awkward. 

[Dan Kelly]

I find it awkward.

Jason --


I think everyone finds it awkward. I'm not sure that's an indictment.


Surely there are plenty of great holes about which you'd say the same thing. Hasn't everyone always said that about the Road Hole? (I'm not comparing No. 9 to the Road Hole!)


How it looks: Nicklaus-like? I don't know; I haven't played enough Nicklaus courses to comment. Unlike the rest of the greens on the course? Not to my eye; it actually has a pretty strong resemblance to No. 2, don't you think. (No. 9 is a more tilted version of No. 2.) If you told me that No. 9 is *too much* like No. 2, from tee through green, I'd see your point.


How it plays: I think it plays well.


As you said earlier in this thread, about your own home course, that's what matters to me most.


Dan

[Doug Siebert]

One other shot of note was Scott Skorupa banking his 'pitch'  off a Silo 40 yards behind this green to about 30 ft -- he just missed the putt or it would have been the most extraordinary up and down I've seen.

I have been told that the silo comes into play but have never seen someone come close.  Glad to hear someone put it to good use!

What really cracked me up when Scott hit it was that in the morning round I'd mentioned I would love to take a bucket of balls out there and try to bank one off the silo.  When I got to the green and saw it was further behind than it looked I realized how difficult that would be - you'd probably have a 5 foot wide area where it would rebound onto the green, which is a pretty accurate shot considering it would need to carry about 220 or so.

Imagine my surprise when Scott hit it!  I was laughing so hard I literally fell down on the hillside.  I was rooting for him to make it, even though he was one of my opponents, just because it would have made the story even better!

[Doug Siebert]

I wanted to also thank Pat and Jason for setting this up, and the staff at Windsong for taking such good care of those of us at the Murphy House!

Also a shout out to my opponent in Sunday's match, Dan Kelly, for helping me out on where things were on some of the quirkier holes at T&C.  Especially #6, the longish par 4 with the blind second over the steep hill.  If he hadn't had us walk well left off the teebox to see how things lined up, I wouldn't have seen there was a faint cart track up the hill that almost lined up with the left edge pin position from my ball.  Using that, I was to hit what was probably my best shot of the day, a 6 iron perfectly on line to 15 feet short of the hole from 190.  If I hadn't had that line I wouldn't have had a hope of even hitting the green, much less getting close enough for good run at birdie / tap in par.

I have to think that hole was originally designed as a par 5, I can't see that being a par 4 originally unless the back tee we were playing from was added later.  I didn't really pay attention to that teebox, but there were a few holes where it was clear the teebox had been added later (kind of a giveaway on an older course when you have to walk back ~60 yards to the tee of a 550 yard par 5 even if it hadn't been obvious from the way the tee was built into a hillside...)

Dan ended up winning 4&2 even with all the free advice I received, but it was a fun match, with me taking 12-14 to hold him at bay for a bit after he'd won the previous 4 before that to put my back against the wall.  Not a lot of halves in our match - unfortunately because both of us were struggling with the short game and failing to get up and down to match the others' pars, rather than lighting up the board with a bunch of birdies.

I liked Windsong the best of the three courses, despite the active construction requiring shots over fully extended excavator arms to a tight pin!  Seeing the course in the Friday twilight Richard Choi and I were thinking might eat a lot of balls, but there is actually plenty of room.  I suppose it played a bit easier because of the construction, since you don't fear a bunker you can drop out of, so I guess that balanced out added difficulty of shots over excavators and worries about hitting the construction guys (who acted like they felt wearing a hardhat would somehow protect the rest of their body)  I think without a breeze the course would be a bit of a pushover if you're playing at all well, but we had a decent breeze so no worries about that!

[PCCraig]

Hi Doug,


Thanks for your note. I'm glad you had a good time and I hope you enjoyed your round at T&C.


In fact, #6 at T&C was originally a par-5, with the current tee box being essentially where the hole has been played from for 100 years. You're also correct that there are a few back tees (and forward tees) that have been added in the somewhat recent years (last 5-6 I would say). New back tees have been added to #5, #7, #11, #13, #15, #17 and #18. The walk back you are referring to is likely the walk on #15, which was added in the name of length about 6 years ago. In it's current shape it's not my favorite tee box and I think the hole is more interesting from the old tee, this is now used as a ladies tee.


It's interesting that you would assume a course that is "only" 6,480 yards would be searching for new ways to add length, but the back tees are typically too tough for most of the membership and I would guess >95% of the men's rounds are played from the middle, "white" tees.

[Doug Siebert]

Hi Doug,


Thanks for your note. I'm glad you had a good time and I hope you enjoyed your round at T&C.


In fact, #6 at T&C was originally a par-5, with the current tee box being essentially where the hole has been played from for 100 years. You're also correct that there are a few back tees (and forward tees) that have been added in the somewhat recent years (last 5-6 I would say). New back tees have been added to #5, #7, #11, #13, #15, #17 and #18. The walk back you are referring to is likely the walk on #15, which was added in the name of length about 6 years ago. In it's current shape it's not my favorite tee box and I think the hole is more interesting from the old tee, this is now used as a ladies tee.


It's interesting that you would assume a course that is "only" 6,480 yards would be searching for new ways to add length, but the back tees are typically too tough for most of the membership and I would guess >95% of the men's rounds are played from the middle, "white" tees.

Well, if it is 6480 now and there were new back tees on seven holes I guess it would have been closer to 6000 yards before?  Interesting that such an overwhelming percentage of the rounds are played from the middle tees.  Do you think that's because the lengthening was recent, so the members who were there pre-lengthening prefer playing the tees they've always played?  I would assume the lengthening happened because they were worried about being able to draw in new members, who may have felt 6000 yards was too short?

In some ways it reminded me of the local Elks Club course here in town.  That's just a nine holer, and shorter - I think something like 2700 yards.  It was built around the turn of the last century, and pretty much followed the existing land since they didn't have earthmoving equipment, and is even quirkier than T&C.  For example, there's a 255 yard par 4 that's hardly ever driven (very small very tilted green with falloffs on left, right and front) and a 500 yard par 5 that apparently used to be quite driveable in the past (double dogleg with both doglegs to the right, so it was only about 250 from tee to green as the crow flies, until they added some trees next to the teebox that blocked that path)

Its par 5 second is sort of the mirror image of T&C's 6th.  It is around 470 yards, with a very steep ~60 foot drop off about 100 yards from the green.  There's an old ship's bell next to the green that is rung after the group ahead putts out, so you know when it is safe to blindly approach!

[PCCraig]

Hi Doug,


Thanks for your note. I'm glad you had a good time and I hope you enjoyed your round at T&C.


In fact, #6 at T&C was originally a par-5, with the current tee box being essentially where the hole has been played from for 100 years. You're also correct that there are a few back tees (and forward tees) that have been added in the somewhat recent years (last 5-6 I would say). New back tees have been added to #5, #7, #11, #13, #15, #17 and #18. The walk back you are referring to is likely the walk on #15, which was added in the name of length about 6 years ago. In it's current shape it's not my favorite tee box and I think the hole is more interesting from the old tee, this is now used as a ladies tee.


It's interesting that you would assume a course that is "only" 6,480 yards would be searching for new ways to add length, but the back tees are typically too tough for most of the membership and I would guess >95% of the men's rounds are played from the middle, "white" tees.

Well, if it is 6480 now and there were new back tees on seven holes I guess it would have been closer to 6000 yards before?  Interesting that such an overwhelming percentage of the rounds are played from the middle tees.  Do you think that's because the lengthening was recent, so the members who were there pre-lengthening prefer playing the tees they've always played?  I would assume the lengthening happened because they were worried about being able to draw in new members, who may have felt 6000 yards was too short?

Without the new back tees the old "back" tees were about 6300 and the middle tees have always been about 6100 yards. On many holes it doesn't make much of a difference and there are many holes where the back and middle tees are played from the same spot (such as #8, #9, and #10). However the back tees make some of the holes much more difficult, such as on #5 and the par-3 11th and 14th. It's just much more difficult for a shorter hitting mid-handicap player from back there.


Each tee is different, but back tees are typically built because a) a few of the longer hitting members like/want the extra distance and b) because members typically take more pride in how long the course is on the scorecard, even if they never play the back tees themselves.






Just a side note, I went out and played a few holes at T&C last evening for the first time since the Mashie a few weeks ago. All I'll say is that I wish you guys had come up this week as the course is playing awesome right now. It is totally rock hard, the ball was bouncing and it's finally browning out a bit which is typical of fall.

[Dan Kelly]

Just a side note, I went out and played a few holes at T&C last evening for the first time since the Mashie a few weeks ago. All I'll say is that I wish you guys had come up this week as the course is playing awesome right now. It is totally rock hard, the ball was bouncing and it's finally browning out a bit which is typical of fall.

I played there Wednesday, Pat, and the greens were blisteringly fast. Lots of fun.

I hit number 17 in two, with a 230 yard Three wood. Had one of my few eagle putts of the year. Should've remembered where the river was. Ran it 5 feet by and missed on the right. Missed the screaming downhill right to left comebacker, too. Par.

Midland is playing much better now, too. Bounce and run, instead of Land and stick. Next Minnesota mashie should be in October.

[Matthew Sander]

Was there any informal banter regarding a potential 2016 venue? Obviously, until King George weighs in all discussions remain purely hypothetical.

[PCCraig]

Just a side note, I went out and played a few holes at T&C last evening for the first time since the Mashie a few weeks ago. All I'll say is that I wish you guys had come up this week as the course is playing awesome right now. It is totally rock hard, the ball was bouncing and it's finally browning out a bit which is typical of fall.

I played there Wednesday, Pat, and the greens were blisteringly fast. Lots of fun.

I hit number 17 in two, with a 230 yard Three wood. Had one of my few eagle putts of the year. Should've remembered where the river was. Ran it 5 feet by and missed on the right. Missed the screaming downhill right to left comebacker, too. Par.

Glad you got out to see the course again while it's in its current shape. You're right, the greens are super fast right now, even by T&C standards.


Hitting #17 in two (heck, or even three) is always an accomplishment as the green has so much back to front slope and is so shallow. Add in the false front and the fall off behind the green and hitting the green safely and leaving yourself an uphill putt becomes a bigger accomplishment than you might initially think when looking at the scorecard!


Interestingly enough, Jeff Mingay is at T&C the next couple of days and is reshaping a bunch of the area behind the 17th green. What exactly he's doing I'm not sure yet but we'll know by the end of the week.

[PCCraig]

Was there any informal banter regarding a potential 2016 venue? Obviously, until King George weighs in all discussions remain purely hypothetical.

It seemed like most people this year were thinking/recommending Forest Dunes next year in order to see Tom Doak's course there, and then Sand Valley the following year once the C&C course is fully open?

[Criss Titschinger]

Was there any informal banter regarding a potential 2016 venue? Obviously, until King George weighs in all discussions remain purely hypothetical.

It seemed like most people this year were thinking/recommending Forest Dunes next year in order to see Tom Doak's course there, and then Sand Valley the following year once the C&C course is fully open?

This is probably true. And it's fine by me.


I still have it in my head that an Iowa Mashie would be a good one. I sent a formal letter to Wakonda Club to inquire about their interest in hosting the Saturday round, but they said their club rules would prohibit them from hosting such an event on a weekend. I'm fine with doing more leg work in arranging this in the future, but it sounds like Wakonda would have to be a weekday side round, at best.

[Jason Thurman]

I’ve heard the speculation about Forest Dunes for 2016, along with a few other courses. I haven’t talked to The Godfather (and new father) recently enough to have any real knowledge of where the 2016 event will be held but I expect it to be at one of two places, either of which would be absolutely stellar. And it’s possible I’ll be wrong, and he’ll line up another equally stellar location for us instead.
 
Forest Dunes and Sand Valley would both make great future options, and it goes without saying that the guys on this site will recommend visiting a new Doak and a new C&C. However, I also think most of us will find our way to those courses eventually, Mashie or not. If it weren’t for the Cleveland Mashie, I don’t know that I’d have ever found my way to Canterbury. Had it not been for the Minneapolis Mashie, I suspect it’s very unlikely I would ever have played the five courses I visited there. I’m incredibly thankful that the last two years have taken this event to courses that fly a little more under-the-radar. There’s just something special about the feeling of “discovering” a course you love and becoming a vocal supporter of it, as opposed to visiting a course that everyone loves and adding one more voice to the shouting.
 
In no way am I voting against either Forest Dunes or Sand Valley, both of which would be a blast. I just want to advocate that we avoid tunnel-vision about those destinations, because a brief perusal of this year’s location-selection thread along with a few conversations I’ve had with George in the past have illuminated that we have far more options available than most of us probably realize. If The Godfather sets up an unexpected location for 2016 or any other year, I’ll be excited at the possibility rather than disappointed at the unexpected.
 
That said, Forest Dunes could be an INCREDIBLE venue and would practically demand the first ever 54-hole Mashie, to say nothing of pre-competition rounds.

[C. Sturges]

I like the idea of another Michigan Mashie.  This is also selfish because of great courses and not to far of a drive!


I also like Criss's idea of an Iowa Mashie where I bet the majority of people have not played much golf.  I personally would have no problem with a round on Thursday or Friday before the weekend.  This year we had a great turn out on Friday and in years past many participants got in town early to play extra rounds.


My third suggestion would be going back to Indiana and having Jason host us at his club.  Sounds like lots of golf balls would be needed and an acceptance for high scores, but we were told this before Windsong Farms and I am sure we would all gladly go back there.


Looking forward to the 2016 Midwest Mashie where ever it is.  Go East!!!
chris

[BHoover]

I played last Saturday at Windsong, and like Midland and T&C, the course was playing very firm and fast (with the exception of a few spots where the irrigation system has been needed to help the new sod around some of the bunkers to grow in).

It's also been interesting to see the progress of the bunker and course renovation project. The front nine was done except for a new bunker that had been dug on the 3rd in the bail out area for those of us who typically hit driver to avoid the water left.

The back nine work was also progressing nicely. The biggest disruption will be the re-routing of the 12th (which I still have a hard time understanding). On Saturday, there was a 25-foot mound of dirt in front of the green that suddenly appeared after sculpting a new route for the fairway. I thought it actually would have been great to simply leave the mound there and make the approach shot semi-blind. But it's only temporary. I think the hole will be shut down soon (there was a temporary hole cut in the fairway, so I think the 12th will soon be a temporary short par 4). But I'll be interested to see the hole once it's finished.

[Ken Fry]

If I may humbly offer consideration for South Bend, Indiana.  Good central location off a major roadway with an easy to use airport in town.  South Bend CC and The Warren Course at ND as venues.  Some strong neighbors nearby for additional rounds.  If not next year, maybe soon.


Heck, The Mashie feels right at home here!!


Ken