[Matt MacIver]

I've already learned two things about RC, which I've never seen: the first fairway is 80 yards wide (me likey) and that there is frost in SoCal.  Looking forward to the rest.

I think the first at #2 is a gentle handshake and an easy bogey for me. I can see the appeal of driving down the left side and taking OOB into play, but I think it's a slightly better than average hole at best. IMO excellent par 5s are hard to come by so I'd really like to see RC.

Any chance someone could post pictures, aerials and/or scorecards along with each hole?

[Mark Bourgeois]

...we're on to the 2nd.

[John Kavanaugh]

You need to play the 1st at Pinehurst post renovation to see how the charm has been taken out of the hole by the reduced width. For the resort player it is just one of many very similar holes with a tighter driving area than most.

[astavrides]

Interesting thread, Alex, but I must say that having played both courses I was underwhelmed by both.  Neither is in my top-100 GCA bucket list.  Both fail the Mucci test of "After playing 18, do you want to go back to the 1st tee."  Comparing and contrasting the two is like comparing and contrasting the works of Barbara Cartland and Jackie Collins.

What underwhelmed you about Rustic Canyon?

[Mac Plumart]

Hole #2---

Rustic's 2nd hole is a good hole and the green has some subtlety and interest, but from my perspective it isn't a great hole.  While the 2nd at Pinehurst is excellent.  Angles and subtlety define the hole with a tricky decision to make off the tee, green surrounds are excellent as well.

Pinehurst up 2 on the MRP Scorecard. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Mac,

I thought the second at Pinehurst was a long par four for the resort player. Hit the ball in the middle of the fairway with a driver and then find the middle of the green. What did I miss?

[Rich Goodale]

Interesting thread, Alex, but I must say that having played both courses I was underwhelmed by both.  Neither is in my top-100 GCA bucket list.  Both fail the Mucci test of "After playing 18, do you want to go back to the 1st tee."  Comparing and contrasting the two is like comparing and contrasting the works of Barbara Cartland and Jackie Collins.

What underwhelmed you about Rustic Canyon?

1.  No OMG moments
2.  Over-hyped by GCA.com glitterati
3.  A few very odd greens/bad holes
4.  The fact that I can't remember much about the course 5 years later

I actually liked #1 and #18, but the rest of the course was just a blur.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Here is what Gib wrote about the first hole at Rustic: "The opening tee shot on #1 is horrible - with an incomprehensibly bad geometry, horrible sight lines (for an opener) and needlessly hidden hazards."

Bad geometry?  Horrible sight lines?  Hidden hazards?  I don't get it.   IMO the geometry and site lines are what make the drive interesting.  No idea what he means by "hidden hazards."
 
On the rare occasions when I get to play RC #1 in the daylight, it is one of my favorite drives on the course.  

I too disagree with Gib's view (no to mention his choice of Applebrook over Aronimink... but that's for another conversation  ).  I love the fact that the fairway is ultra wide, and if you have the cajones to play as close as possible to the fence-line down the left side, you have a much better angle over the wash running diagonally in front of the green for a very doable 2nd shot into the green.

[Mac Plumart]

Mac,

I thought the second at Pinehurst was a long par four for the resort player. Hit the ball in the middle of the fairway with a driver and then find the middle of the green. What did I miss?

Apparently a lot!   

Easy side to drive the ball is center or right.  Green opens up if you take it up the left, but there are fairway bunkers there.  Higher risk=reward off the tee.  Miss the green, you deal with those humps and bumps.  Pinehurst #2 is NOT a resort players course.  It is pretty darn sophisticated.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't get the sophistication of having bunkers that run the length of the fairway on both sides of every hole.  Greens that offer no options of using internal contours to get the ball close to the hole but reject balls from all four sides thus requiring every shot to be played to the middle of the green.  And most importantly zero options when you are within 15 feet of any green surface.  You run the ball along the ground or you lose.  I'm not saying that it is not great golf, I'm saying that it lacks any real world sophistication for the resort golfer.

I will give the place all the props in the world for giving up prime time revenue to host amateur tournaments and a hidden elasticity that allows a resort golfer to feel like he is playing a championship course.  Now that I have played the renovation I do get why Mike Davis played God with his obtuse shortening of certain holes.  It really is the only way to make one hole play differently than another.

I still believe that Rustic can win this.

[Mac Plumart]

Sure Rustic can win...its a great course.  I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out...even on my own scorecard, as I haven't gone past the second hole yet.

Fun thread.

[Alex Miller]

Giving this another shot...

2nd hole:
 
Rustic and PH#2 offer a nice comparison here as both second holes are long, straight par 4's to beautifully contoured and challenging greens. To steal again from Ran's Pinehurst write up:
 
Local golf course architect Richard Mandell has had plenty of opportunity to study No.2 and says in admiration, ‘What I like about the greens at No. 2 is the way Ross doesn’t just simply open up the putting surface to the middle of the fairway or even to the same spot on each golf hole. He constantly mixes it. For example, the best angle to approach the putting surface of the second green is the far left side of the fairway. A golfer’s instinct is to take the shorter route to gain an advantage and that is the right side in this case. It will take the golfer fifty tries to realize the shorter route is the wrong side to approach the green from.
 
Wait, are we sure he's talking about Pinehurst and not Rustic? The more I looked at these two holes the more I realized how much they have in common. How to separate them, to figure out which one is better? Both greens work although in different ways. PH#2 repels balls that are not destined to reach the putting surface and the ensuing recovery is made that much tougher. The right side of the green is not easily accessible, especially at full US Open length, but a smart bogey golfer can still plod his way to a 5 as the scratch player may find frustration in making par.
 
Almost the exact same can be said of Rustic's 2nd, except that the green and surrounds operate in opposite ways. The contours around the green allow for the ball to pitch on, even gather to the surface in some places, however the prominent mound in the middle offers problems for the player who misjudges their approach. Often times a 30 foot putt from the green will lead to a much tougher par than a 60 foot putt (or chip) from the fairway left. That area is somewhere between a bailout and legitimate strategy to making 4, and only the bravest and smartest golfers are able to manage the trickery and complications caused by the cross bunker, sloping green, and aforementioned knob.
 
Both are outstanding 2nd's, and so I can give neither of them that designation (2nd place, that is) in this match. Halved. RC remains 1 Up.

[Gib_Papazian]

"Always with the negative waves Moriarty, always with the negative waves."

I can see how the Merion thread ended up taking on a life of its own. And please don't try to embarrass me with niggling copy edits (cite v. sight) or snotty insults. I know your J.D. entitles you to look down your pontificatory proboscis at us Film School dummies, but I've spent just as much time as you studying the strategic arrangements of the masters - and don't recall you writing a book with the world's foremost expert on Macdonald/Raynor. BTW, there is a golf architecture firm right below the chair I'm sitting in, so I'll wander down there an get his opinion later on - just in case you want to learn instead of teach for a change.

I'd go one step further and assert that it would be a simple matter to improve #1 at Rustic simply by making use of the land between the 1st and 9th fairway. Go to Google Satellite - you'll note #2 shares a fairway and it works quite well. You've got a ton of room to expand the width of the playing area - and beat some strategy into an otherwise disorganized conception.

This is certainly not a situation such as North Berwick - where there was no getting around a hopelessly awkward opener (assuming the clubhouse stays in the same spot) to make the rest of the course work. I'm hardly suggesting hazards and the geometry ought to be obvious and right in front of you, but starting out with a head-scratcher is not a good idea.

It would be like Thomas Keller starting out with his Salmon ice cream cone as the first appetizer course at the French Laundry. Before you get too esoteric, it is best to warm up your audience a bit. Pacing is extremely important in golf courses, music, literature and films. Ridley Scott didn't start out Alien with a creature exploding out of John Hurt's guts because he and Dan O'Bannon understand that film is like a musical composition - you've got to set the stage first. Jean-Luc Godard was fond of saying his films have "a beginning, a middle and an end, just not necessarily in that order." Okay, fair enough, but Kubrick did not start out 2001 with a space station before the apes.

It would make more sense in some ways to simply reverse the nines at Rustic. #10 would be a fabulous opening gambit - and playing #1 further downstream would not seem as awkward. It reminds me a bit of #10 at Apache Stronghold (although the nines did not return) - a strange riddle I have still not figured out - but if that hole had been the opener, it would not have worked.

[DMoriarty]

Gib,  And here I thought it was just banter with an old friend. Oh well.  Might I suggest that if you are going to dish it out you ought be a bit more prepared to take it?

As for your self-proclaimed expertise and book credit, great for you.  I can't compare.  Nonetheless, I'll go with the Hanse/Wagner/Shackelford version of the first hole at Rustic.  Given that I am neither expert nor author, I am perhaps less inclined to redesign their course for them.

As for your suggested redesign of the first hole, while I haven't consulted Google Earth I can tell you that, IMO, combining the first and 9th fairway doesn't strike me as a particularly compelling idea.  

As for your suggestion about reversing the nines, that would make some sense for a number of reasons, but then there are pretty good reasons to leave it as is, too.  I'd be okay with it either way, but again defer to the designers.  

[Gib_Papazian]

I'm just trying to get your goat. You take all this stuff so fucking seriously, I cannot help but give you the dick.

BTW, just so you know, I agreed with most of your assertions on the Merion thread.

But that does not mean #1 at RC is a great opener.

[DMoriarty]

Not nearly as seriously as people seem to think.  I'm actually enjoying your comments.  They are very timely as far as I am concerned.

Just recently I was trying to make a point on another thread about how everyone thinks they can do better than nature, which is how a lot of good courses and sites get ruined, and here you are stepping to up make my point for me.  I appreciate that.  Thanks.

[Joe Perches]

As for your suggested redesign of the first hole, while I haven't consulted Google Earth I can tell you that, IMO, combining the first and 9th fairway doesn't strike me as a particularly compelling idea.  

I believe the primary reason for fairway separation was required environmental set-asides.

[David Panzarasa]

Interesting thread, Alex, but I must say that having played both courses I was underwhelmed by both.  Neither is in my top-100 GCA bucket list.  Both fail the Mucci test of "After playing 18, do you want to go back to the 1st tee."  Comparing and contrasting the two is like comparing and contrasting the works of Barbara Cartland and Jackie Collins.

I found Rustic to "pass the Mucci test" to me actually. After playing it, I wanted to go right back to replay a good deal of the holes. The first hole being one of them. Some courses (I found this with Streamsong as well), you need a "walk through almost" to know and understand/see what is in front of you. It's easy for someone to say "dont miss left, or that tower in the background is your aiming point", but actually seeing it is so important

The First hole, I like. Yes, the tee box doesn't set up in the right line, but step back and take 5 seconds to align correctly, and all is well.I don't think the fist hole should get negative feedback because of the tee box, not everything should be perfect and just adapt/change to it. If you line up correctly, your fine...I think that's part of the game, expecting a tee box to align you correctly is taking away from a good deal (my opinion at least).  I also like the green, found the green and the 10-20 yards surrounding it to be hard/fun and could try every type of shot.

[Alex Miller]

Good point David.

Jeeze how many left-handed Davids are there in LA? 


Rustic is definitely a tougher course to get a grasp on visually, especially the first walk or two. I don't think that makes a course any better or worse as TOC has that quality and it's an undisputed 10. They have cleared out some of the areas from tee to fairway to make it easier though.

[Mac Plumart]

Driving cant type a lot.

#2s 3rd hole is really good, but Rustics us truly excellent. Multiple options off the tee. Fun!

Pinehurst +1 through 3.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Gentlemen, now here is an architecture aficiado to aspire to. The man endangers his life to squeeze in a post about the merits of a golf hole!

Driving cant type a lot.

And who can argue? #2 on #2 is a great hole but it's never distinguished itself particularly well for me personally seeing as it sits between two world-beaters in the 1st and the 3rd.

Love the way Rustic's 2nd green challenges you to risk OB. Like most holes at Pinehurst #2, it gives you plenty of room away from the trouble but exacts a more difficult approach as its payment.

[Joe Perches]

Love the way Rustic's 2nd green challenges you to risk OB.

Well, it's not really _that_ much of a challenge.

It's 30+ yards wide on the more desired left side of the fairway.

[Alex Miller]

Love the way Rustic's 2nd green challenges you to risk OB.

Well, it's not really _that_ much of a challenge.

It's 30+ yards wide on the more desired left side of the fairway.

I interpreted Mark to mean that the angle of the green and the preferred approach being from the left challenges the golfer to risk OB off the tee. 

[jim_lewis]

 I question the wisdom of attempting to evaluate #2 on a hole-by-hole basis. There may not be a better example of a course where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. I have never played Rustic Canyon, so I can not enter the comparison, even if wanted to. I will say that the green complex on #2's second hole is among the best I have ever seen.

It has been suggested here many times that there are courses that are hard to appreciate on the first play. Two excellent examples are The Old Course and Pinehurst #2.  Unfortunately, many play those courses only once. I think it takes an especially keen eye to recognize the brilliance of #2 on the first play, especially since the player is usually focused on own game.

BTW, I happen to think that the second hole is one of the very best on the course. It is very true that it is extremely difficult to get an approach shot near the hole, especially when it is tucked back right. Very few players are thinking birdie on that hole, even the tour players. Par is a very good score and will win as often as not.  Mr. Ross thought that the best test of golf was the ability to hit well struck irons. Pinehurst #2 rewards excellent iron shots, will tolerate good shots, but will punish mediocrity. Most of us tend to hope we can get by with mediocre iron play. Not on #2!! If you can't hit excellent approach shots, you had better know where to miss the greens.

[Mac Plumart]

Amen.

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