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Mike Schott

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Which classic era courses have held up best to the modern equipment and ball?...
« on: February 02, 2015, 06:16:10 PM »
Without adding much if any length or being redesigned? And what qualities do they possess that allow for this? I apologize if this has been addressed which it probably has. I suspect Pine Valley is in this discussion and Augusta National is not.
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Cliff Hamm

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Re: Which classic era courses have held up best to the modern equipment and ball?...
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2015, 07:43:06 PM »
Do not have the resume of many others.  But Shinnecock Hills comes to mind immediately.
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Mark Pritchett

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Re: Which classic era courses have held up best to the modern equipment and ball?...
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2015, 07:58:36 PM »
Peachtree
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David_Tepper

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Re: Which classic era courses have held up best to the modern equipment and ball?...
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2015, 08:07:19 PM »
Riviera and Colonial have held up pretty well as PGA Tour courses. One thing they have in common is smallish greens.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 09:09:15 PM by David_Tepper »
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Jonathan Mallard

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Re: Which classic era courses have held up best to the modern equipment and ball?...
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2015, 08:17:15 PM »
Crystal Downs
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Gene Greco

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Re: Which classic era courses have held up best to the modern equipment and ball?...
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2015, 08:18:36 PM »
Pebble Beach
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"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Jason Way

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Re: Which classic era courses have held up best to the modern equipment and ball?...
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2015, 09:26:58 PM »
It depends on what you mean by "held up best".  Does that mean that they have retained their level of interest and enjoyment for their members and guests?  Or are you referring specifically to PGA tournament venues and resistance to scoring?
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"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Mark McKeever

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Re: Which classic era courses have held up best to the modern equipment and ball?...
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2015, 08:15:02 AM »
Merion proved it  with the US Open in 2013.

I hope Wissahickon can prove it this summer for the PGA National Championship!   ;D
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Mark Pearce

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Re: Which classic era courses have held up best to the modern equipment and ball?...
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2015, 09:23:04 AM »
Quote from: Mark McKeever on February 03, 2015, 08:15:02 AM
Merion proved it  with the US Open in 2013.
Did it?  Or did the narrowed fairways and knee deep rough prove otherwise?
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Dan Boerger

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Re: Which classic era courses have held up best to the modern equipment and ball?...
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2015, 09:27:52 AM »
Aronimink held up very well for the two years it hosted the AT&T National ... and without amping up the green speeds or with crazy pin positions.
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"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Mark Steffey

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Re: Which classic era courses have held up best to the modern equipment and ball?...
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2015, 09:47:13 AM »
Quote from: Mark McKeever on February 03, 2015, 08:15:02 AM
Merion proved it  with the US Open in 2013.

I hope Wissahickon can prove it this summer for the PGA National Championship!   ;D

didn't merion add ~450 yds (6500 to 6950)?
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D_Malley

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Re: Which classic era courses have held up best to the modern equipment and ball?...
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2015, 10:55:09 AM »
Quote from: Dan Boerger on February 03, 2015, 09:27:52 AM
Aronimink held up very well for the two years it hosted the AT&T National ... and without amping up the green speeds or with crazy pin positions.

What they did at Aronimink was slow down the greens and use pin placements that the members have never seen.
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Dan Boerger

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Re: Which classic era courses have held up best to the modern equipment and ball?...
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2015, 11:41:55 AM »
Good point Dave.

But they did not narrow any fairways, overly lengthen holes (save, perhaps, for #9). And I seem to recall it was 3rd or 4th in resistance to scoring those particular years on the tour. Pretty stout for a course "mostly" untouched (OK, touched and then restored) from Mr. Ross' design.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 11:44:03 AM by Dan Boerger »
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"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Mark McKeever

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Re: Which classic era courses have held up best to the modern equipment and ball?...
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2015, 03:43:42 PM »
How long was Aronimink when Ross built it?  No way it's anywhere near the length it stretches to today.

Mark
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Dan Boerger

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Re: Which classic era courses have held up best to the modern equipment and ball?...
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2015, 04:11:39 PM »
Mark - I will check when I get home this evening, but I think 6,613 yds (give or take!). So, yes, it has been lengthened over time ... but long then and still for a par 70.
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"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Josh Tarble

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Re: Which classic era courses have held up best to the modern equipment and ball?...
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2015, 04:49:22 PM »
Quote from: D_Malley on February 03, 2015, 10:55:09 AM
Quote from: Dan Boerger on February 03, 2015, 09:27:52 AM
Aronimink held up very well for the two years it hosted the AT&T National ... and without amping up the green speeds or with crazy pin positions.

What they did at Aronimink was slow down the greens and use pin placements that the members have never seen.

Is that true?  That seems like the best method for "protecting" a course I've heard.  More should be made of this imo.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Which classic era courses have held up best to the modern equipment and ball?...
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2015, 05:13:32 PM »
Quote from: Mike Schott on February 02, 2015, 06:16:10 PM

Without adding much if any length or being redesigned? And what qualities do they possess that allow for this? I apologize if this has been addressed which it probably has. I suspect Pine Valley is in this discussion and Augusta National is not.


Mike,

The real answer is that none of them have held up.

They've all had to be modified.

The most common modification has been added length, but, a few have had to soften their greens to accomodate higher speeds.

With the added length, Winged Foot West and Shinnecock seem to have provided a more than adequate challenge.
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Mark_Fine

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Re: Which classic era courses have held up best to the modern equipment and ball?...
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2015, 05:21:25 PM »
All the ones that have been carefully restored and/or rennovated  ;)
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Mike Schott

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Re: Which classic era courses have held up best to the modern equipment and ball?...
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2015, 07:18:23 PM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on February 03, 2015, 05:13:32 PM
Quote from: Mike Schott on February 02, 2015, 06:16:10 PM

Without adding much if any length or being redesigned? And what qualities do they possess that allow for this? I apologize if this has been addressed which it probably has. I suspect Pine Valley is in this discussion and Augusta National is not.


Mike,

The real answer is that none of them have held up.

They've all had to be modified.

The most common modification has been added length, but, a few have had to soften their greens to accomodate higher speeds.

With the added length, Winged Foot West and Shinnecock seem to have provided a more than adequate challenge.

Thanks Pat. That's why I added the "best" qualifier. What design details about WFW and Shinnecock put them above most other courses in this regard?
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Sam Krume

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Re: Which classic era courses have held up best to the modern equipment and ball?...
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2015, 05:03:38 PM »
I think The Addington has maybe stood the test of time. I don't believe that many holes have been lengthened from what Abercromby originally layer out and it is still a great test.
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