Feature Interview with Ted Bishop

[Ran Morrissett]

Ted Bishop has worn a variety of hats (golf course owner, PGA professional, Green Keeper, general manager and 38th President of the PGA).  He has executed all these duties with passion and great concern for the health of the game. His answers as told to Joel Stewart over the phone reflect that spirit in this month's Feature Interview.
 
Our questions are diverse and some of his answers (like foot golf) might startle you; that’s always the mark of a great interviewee. Please note: We did not discuss Gleneagles or any Twitter posts since they do not pertain to architecture.
 
Naturally, the founding and nurturing of the public access Legends golf facility on the south side of Indianapolis is a subject near and dear to his heart. How the golf landscape has changed since he became involved in that project in 1989 is nothing short of staggering. Insights that he provides (20 plus upscale, daily fee courses opened in the tight timeframe from 1995 to 2000) about golf saturated central Indiana are emblematic of what happened in other areas countrywide.
 
Mr. Bishop’s golf career began as a Green Keeper at a municipal course in rural Indiana and culminated in 2013 with his induction into the Indiana Golf Hall of Fame. I always find folks with ‘dirt under their nails’ to be the most engaging and worthwhile to listen to because they have often learned the good old fashion way. This month’s Feature Interview proves my hypothesis – see if you don’t agree.

Best,

[jeffwarne]

Thanks Ran,
Mr. Bishop and I disagree on many topics, but he has walked the walk and has my respect.
He was given a very raw deal with the "how will this look" police on the National Board of the PGA, and many many members and PGA Sections have voiced their disapproval of the hasty process that ended his term after his unfortunate judgement errors in his use of social media.

[Connor Dougherty]

Thanks for another great interview.

I thought many of the responses were interesting (particularly those on foot golf, green grass, and his belief that Dye's course at French Lick is the best in Indiana), but I found none more intriguing than his last question:

The Ryder Cup sites in the United Kingdom are frequently – and disappointingly – on modern courses. We understand the financial element that goes into a winning bid to host and yet … given the magnitude of the Ryder Cup, shouldn’t it be held on some venerable links, at least from time to time?

Ryder Cup Europe has a vastly different approach to selecting sites as opposed to the PGA of America. It’s just a totally different philosophy regarding Ryder Cup selection by the European PGA.  They are shrewd and look at it more from a financial standpoint.  As they have shown over the last five Ryder Cups and again with the selection of Paris in 2018, it all about money.

Our philosophy is to go to a great golf course and make sure that there is enough space for infrastructure and the ability to sell hospitality.  Look at Hazeltine which is a big site with a tremendous amount of room. Bethpage is the same which has absolutely no issues.  Whistling Straights is going to be a challenge but they have the room.  There are some logistical issues especially with the hotels and how they are going to get people in and out.

As someone who has grown up loving the Ryder Cup more than any other golf event, I found this very interesting, but wonder if the selections made by Ryder Cup Europe are solely from a financial standpoint or if it is the product of having far less championship courses. One of the things I've always believed about golf courses abroad is that they are less prone to significant changes in length and difficulty because the R&A has established a limited rota of courses for its major championships, and the likelihood of any course contending for a major is very unlikely. ( if Castle Stuart and Trump Aberdeen don't get one, it'd be a resoundingly strong message to the rest of the UK: don't bother trying to build a 7000 yard monster, you'll never get a major and no one will care to play it from that distance.)

In the US there's a far greater selection of golf courses not only capable of hosting something like the Ryder Cup, but qualified. The same cannot be said for the European courses. New courses are far more likely to get big events (Chambers Bay and Whistling Straits certainly fit this mold, and Trump Ferry Point seems likely to get an event in the future, among others). Truth be told, that's a loss for us. For every Chambers Bay, we get a 7500 yard course that is both boring and useless. What a shame.

[jeffwarne]

Connor,
i can think of dozens of courses in the UK/Ireland capable of hosting the Ryder Cup.
And given the recent past sites, both here and in the UK/ireland, I'd say I can think of many hundreds actually

It is funny Bishop says Europe's picks are about money-which they are.
If we're not picking our recent sites for money, we certainly have taste issues

[Joe Sponcia]

"Absolutely not!  Rolling back the ball would be one of the worst things that could happen to the game.  Anything you do to make the game harder to the average guy is not a good thing.  There is no way I can stand on the first tee and give people balls and tell them they are going to go 20% less".  - Ted Bishop

Mr. Bishop,

You wouldn't ask the same golfer to play the 7,000 yard tees with his 20% less flying ball, you would more likely eliminate the 60 yards walk to the back tee box at any-club-ruined-by-the-ball USA.  Wouldn't this speed play?  Wouldn't this cost less to maintain?  Cost and time to complete a round are shrinking the game. 

The Robert Trent Jones, Ross Bridge course is a perfect example of what is wrong with the game right now.  The 8,191 back tees, and the more 'playable' purple tees at 7,446 yards should alert us all to the great damage the ruling bodies have done by bowing to the equipment companies and purveyors of carts. 

[Connor Dougherty]

Connor,
i can think of dozens of courses in the UK/Ireland capable of hosting the Ryder Cup.
And given the recent past sites, both here and in the UK/ireland, I'd say I can think of many hundreds actually

It is funny Bishop says Europe's picks are about money-which they are.
If we're not picking our recent sites for money, we certainly have taste issues

Jeff,
To be fair I wouldn't be surprised to think I'm wrong, I've seen far fewer golf courses across the Atlantic than in the US (something I'm planning on changing in the next few years). An equally contributing factor to my hypothesis is that there were so fewer golf courses being built in the UK/Ireland than in the US in the last 30 years.

Just out of curiosity, outside of the Open Rota, which courses would be good Ryder Cup sites in the EU and what limits them from hosting the event (Other than Ryder Cup Europe)?

[Jason Topp]

Connor,
i can think of dozens of courses in the UK/Ireland capable of hosting the Ryder Cup.
And given the recent past sites, both here and in the UK/ireland, I'd say I can think of many hundreds actually

It is funny Bishop says Europe's picks are about money-which they are.
If we're not picking our recent sites for money, we certainly have taste issues

Jeff,
To be fair I wouldn't be surprised to think I'm wrong, I've seen far fewer golf courses across the Atlantic than in the US (something I'm planning on changing in the next few years). An equally contributing factor to my hypothesis is that there were so fewer golf courses being built in the UK/Ireland than in the US in the last 30 years.

Just out of curiosity, outside of the Open Rota, which courses would be good Ryder Cup sites in the EU and what limits them from hosting the event (Other than Ryder Cup Europe)?

In addition to the Open rota, one can look at Sr. Open venues and come up with a good list of potential venues:


Walton Heath
Sunningdale
Porthcawl
Royal Aberdeen
Portrush
Royal County Down

http://www.europeantour.com/seniortour/season=2015/tournamentid=2015862/history/index.html

[Connor Dougherty]

Jason,
How capable are those courses of housing large crowds? How well would fans be able to get to and from the grounds? I'm not asking to try to prove you wrong, I've not seen any of the courses listed other than Royal Aberdeen (which is a terrific course, although I do wonder if it would have enough space) and am genuinely curious.

Ignoring the quality of the golf courses (for the most part I'm satisfied with the selections from the PGA), Hazeltine, Whistling, and Bethpage has the room for a large number of spectators. Money is probably the biggest driving factor in that decision, but as a fan, the ability to move with groups during events with less golfers is big.

[Kyle Harris]

*shrug*

I didn't read much here that was terribly provocative nor particularly noteworthy.

His stance on the ball is myopic, and leads me to wonder which major manufacturer is sponsoring him. The Ryder Cup venue comments are odd, considering that "selling hospitality" for me implies as much financial motive as his presentation of the process for PGA Europe.

I am most interested in his comments on the passion of PGA Professional these days as he seems to connect passion with a financial motive. I know/worked with a handful of passionate PGA of America members that would do anything to increase the amount of lessons they give, with little financial motive.

The irony lies in the idea that modern equipment allows golfers to have much less golf/athletic ability that the need for a series of lessons to maintain a skill level is next to nothing.

Roll the ball back and make a more precise swing a little bit more necessary and lesson revenue/demand will increase.

[Sean_A]

Connor

Think about it, which UK club has £1 million or £3 million (or whatever the PGA demands) in the bank to buy the Ryder Cup?  I recall reading that Walton Heath was approached many years ago to host the Ryder Cup and laughed at the suggestion of paying a huge amount money for the effort.  Its a huge financial risk for a private club to undertake. 

Ciao

[Mike_Young]

Connor,
i can think of dozens of courses in the UK/Ireland capable of hosting the Ryder Cup.
And given the recent past sites, both here and in the UK/ireland, I'd say I can think of many hundreds actually

It is funny Bishop says Europe's picks are about money-which they are.
If we're not picking our recent sites for money, we certainly have taste issues

Jeff,
If not mistaken I think the European tour receives money from the Ryder Cup fees over there and here the tour receives nothing...is that right...

[Carl Rogers]

Rolling the ball back, which I favor for all of the reasons usually cited on this web site, has to go hand in hand with a more flexible and varied course set-up as well as a commitment to using much much less water through the green for more roll out. 

Some how Mr. Bishop, in discussing the US Open set-up at Merion, doesn't seem to understand when the USGA finds it necessary to go such extraordinary distortions that should be telling him something about the ball.

[Joel_Stewart]

We didn't expect many on this web site to agree with his thoughts but he's a significant voice in golf and we applaud his candid views.  He is as passionate as any person on this web site and like many has serious reservations about the future of golf.  In his case he has millions of dollars invested, a payroll to meet and his livelihood is at stake.

 

[Carl Rogers]

Mr. Stewart,
I should have gone on to say that the game, IMHO, is at least 30 years beyond the point of no return as far as the ball and club is concerned.
... no turning back now

[Joel_Stewart]

Jeff,
If not mistaken I think the European tour receives money from the Ryder Cup fees over there and here the tour receives nothing...is that right...

Mike, the PGA of America and the PGA tour split apart from each other in 1968.  I'm speaking without much knowledge but the PGA of America runs both the PGA Championship and the Ryder Cup and of course Tim Finchem runs the PGA tour. 

Somebody can correct me but I believe the the European PGA runs both the European tour and the Ryder Cup?  I'm not sure if European club professionals are run by the same organization.

[Daniel Jones]

Joel, that is correct. The Ryder Cup finances a big chunk of the European Tour operations. Back when the tour and PGA split, the players took the World Series of Golf, the PGA took the Ryder Cup. Here's a pretty good article on that from earlier this year...

http://espn.go.com/golf/rydercup14/story/_/id/11571700/at-ryder-cup-follow-money-golf

[Sam Morrow]

We didn't expect many on this web site to agree with his thoughts but he's a significant voice in golf and we applaud his candid views.  He is as passionate as any person on this web site and like many has serious reservations about the future of golf.  In his case he has millions of dollars invested, a payroll to meet and his livelihood is at stake.

Where was he being particularly candid? Seemed like very generic answers to me.

[john_stiles]

There were many good questions and the answers were not totally unexpected.

As an owner, he discusses all the things being tried to bring in more business, including foot golf.

In the end though, one remark certainly seems to tell the story.

" As a result, we have been put in a position to increase our local market share by taking players away from competitors. "

Seems we have all been discussing no growth, loss of courses, etc. for many years now.

Still,  it was interesting to see the answer end with such a stark admission.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Connor,
i can think of dozens of courses in the UK/Ireland capable of hosting the Ryder Cup.
And given the recent past sites, both here and in the UK/ireland, I'd say I can think of many hundreds actually

It is funny Bishop says Europe's picks are about money-which they are.
If we're not picking our recent sites for money, we certainly have taste issues

Jeff,
To be fair I wouldn't be surprised to think I'm wrong, I've seen far fewer golf courses across the Atlantic than in the US (something I'm planning on changing in the next few years). An equally contributing factor to my hypothesis is that there were so fewer golf courses being built in the UK/Ireland than in the US in the last 30 years.

Just out of curiosity, outside of the Open Rota, which courses would be good Ryder Cup sites in the EU and what limits them from hosting the event (Other than Ryder Cup Europe)?

In addition to the Open rota, one can look at Sr. Open venues and come up with a good list of potential venues:


Walton Heath
Sunningdale
Porthcawl
Royal Aberdeen
Portrush
Royal County Down

http://www.europeantour.com/seniortour/season=2015/tournamentid=2015862/history/index.html

Portmarnock would probably be the best of the lot with regards to space and infrastructure... It was crying out to be held there in 2006...

[Gary Sato]

I found it interesting.   Appreciate his candor on operating his golf course.  Revenue - Expenses = Profit and he's concerned with all and dealing with it the best he can.

[Mike_Young]

I like Ted Bishop.  His problem was that he was his own boss at his club and he was president of an organization comprised mainly of people that were employees of clubs.  All of the golf organizations in the US cater to the non-profit clubs much more than they do the for profit privately owned models.  There was no way he wasn't going to piss off the crowd sooner or later....I hope we hear from him again.

[Joel_Stewart]

His problem was that he was his own boss at his club and he was president of an organization comprised mainly of people that were employees of clubs.  All of the golf organizations in the US cater to the non-profit clubs much more than they do the for profit privately owned models.  There was no way he wasn't going to piss off the crowd sooner or later....I hope we hear from him again.

These are very good points Mike.  The dynamic that he was an owner dealing with PGA people who are employees is something we never considered? 

Aside from the Ryder Cup mistakes and his removal as president, I personally don't know of any other issues he had with the PGA.