The new Cypress Point

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Pazin,

Astute readers will note that several people already commented on how changing the bunker has affected strategy.

Would you list the "several" people you reference other then Tiger Bernhardt who have commented on how changing the bunkers has affected the strategy ??

I noted people who didn't like the color of the sand, but none other than TB who discussed strategy.  Did I miss something?

What other people ?

Don't take a singular and expand it to mutliple to suit your convenience.

If acquiring the facts that influence and determine conclusions disturbs you, it would seem to indicate that you only want others to arrive at the your conclusions without the facts.

Don't you feel that the questions are relevant to the assertions made regarding the bunkers, playability, and strategy ?

Tiger Bernhardt,

Again, why wouldn't the new bunker sand be anything but consistent ?

Why are the bunkers easier to play out of ?

How is strategy affected ?

[Brad Swanson]

Does the fact that the sand is a bit whiter than some would prefer make these traps play any differently??  Are people actually blinded by their whiteness that it affects their ability to execute the proper shot?

I think the sand grain may not be a perfect match to the original sand as well.  I demand that someone send me some samples (old and new) to anaylze using some of the exceptionally fancy microscopes I have at my disposal.  We must get to the bottom of this.  

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[THuckaby2]

Patrick:

Do I not exist?  I believe I've been discussing strategy throughout this thread... Oh, I don't have the before and after experience that JB does, but at least I have the "after" and can wonder about the before, and what the future might hold...

Brad:

I could care less about the color, myself.  Yeah, blazing white kinda seems out of place a bit, but that doesn't bother me a lick.  What might bother me is if the playability of a bunker like that on 9 changed from hazardous to simple... that is a problem and I take JB's word for it that such has occurred.

TH

[Brad Swanson]

Tom,
   My deal is that I think we are getting out of hand when accusations of photo manipulation are being tossed around in this and other threads regarding pictures of the bunkering at CPC, as if the whole issue is as important as a matter of national security.  Wait a minute, I forgot where I am; considering this crowd, it may just be a matter of national security.  I'm sure the GCA Patriot Act has alerted Ran to send some men in black to have a word with me.  Carry on.

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tiger, Joel, Tommy, Mike, George, et. al.,

What sand should they have used ?

Could you provide the specifications and the vendor ?

Can you satisfy Brad's request for particle size, configuration and color for the purpose of microscopic review ?  

Tom Huckaby,

How can anyone provide a playability and strategic evaluation if they haven't played the golf course, pre and post bunker work ?I'm puzzled ?

Specifically, what is it about each of the bunkers that effects a change in strategy for each bunker, each hole

What about each new bunker changes the previous strategy,
the particle size, the compaction, the color ??

Rather than answer with vague generalities, let's try to focus on specifics.

Are the floors different, the slopes, the depth ?
Let's get the specifics regarding configuration and location so that we can understand IF there is a perceptable change, or an illusory change.

[THuckaby2]

Patrick:

Read more closely and puzzlement wouldn't be your fate.

I HAVE played the course both pre and post bunker work, in the cases of #8 and #13 and #15 (altough 15 wasn't work so much on the bunkers as it was shoring up the sea wall).

Do I now qualify?

I did say that above, at least twice.... I said I saw how the bunker work on 8 has turned out.  It turned out fine.  I don't think any change in strategy occurred due to the changes there, but that's because they did their job well.  Same goes for 13, by my take anyway.

JB says that's not the case on 9... thus my questions.  I didn't see a before and after there, correct.   You'd have to go pretty far back to do so.

TH

[George Pazin]

Would you list the "several" people you reference other then Tiger Bernhardt who have commented on how changing the bunkers has affected the strategy ??

I noted people who didn't like the color of the sand, but none other than TB who discussed strategy.  Did I miss something?

What other people ?

Don't take a singular and expand it to mutliple to suit your convenience.

If acquiring the facts that influence and determine conclusions disturbs you, it would seem to indicate that you only want others to arrive at the your conclusions without the facts.

Don't you feel that the questions are relevant to the assertions made regarding the bunkers, playability, and strategy ?

Ahhhh, now if I were as inclined to nitpick as, say, you, that's where I would have started. I was fully prepared to come back with Huck but he's already done so quite nicely.

More questions, more requests for extraneous information that no one can provide, probably not even the people doing the work, more motions, let's bury 'em with paperwork, yeah, yeah....

There is a really nice discussion group going on here - maybe you'd like to join in & discuss things like the rest of the posters. You've played Cypress, haven't you?

Oh well, at least Ham's happy. Thanks for the fair & balanced approach.

That's enough for me - I'll let the others continue to discuss the changes & engage in enjoyable speculation about how these changes might affect future play.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I am off to Tucson tom morning. need to get out of the office and go hit some balls. I am playing the Gallery GC. Pat, I know nothing about it but hope to learn something and have some fun playing golf. Oh GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO TIGERSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS beat those Arizona mildcats. Its football season and I even bet ND (I call them merely the C's). Go LSU!!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Pazin,

I have played CPC several times.

I'm not as willing to accept definitive proclamations without inquiring to my satisfaction.

Tom Huckaby says that no strategic changes have occured, John Bernhardt feels differently.  I don't know if strategy has changed or remained the same, hence I ask questions in an attempt to learn more, BEFORE drawing a conclusion.

Are the bunkers deeper ?
Are they located as before ?
Are they configured differently ?
Are they maintained differenty ?

These are all important factors, yet, noone has answered these questions.

New bunkers, like new greens, often play differently when first opened versus over time.
Likewise, their color can change due to the elements, salt spray and contamination over time.

Initially, it seemed that the objection was due to the "LOOK"
I'd like to know more about them before arriving at my own conclusions and opinions.

I seek facts, not conclusions.

Tiger Bernhardt,

Will giving 5.5 points reflect your inability to draw proper conclusions based on your assesment of the situation and your opinions, should ND fall short ?    

Hopefully, you'll be right on this one  

Have a good weekend, it's been raining here for 3 days and it's supposed to continue tomorrow.  I too, would rather be heading to Arizona to play golf.

[THuckaby2]

Patrick:

Now hold on a second... yes, I did see no strategic changes effected by the bunker changes on 8 or 13... but others have said such about 13... and I also didn't disagree with JB about 9!  I just said I never played the course to know a before and after there, as I never saw the before (or at least I don't remember it).

So it's not quite fair to say:  "Tom Huckaby says that no strategic changes have occured, John Bernhardt feels differently."

We are just talking about different golf holes!  I don't think JB ever opined re 8... I just put that out as an example of where I saw bunker work before and after, and to me no strategic, or really huge visual, changes occurred.

In any case remember also that I'm the one that said we need to give the new bunkers time...

I'm with you in any case - what people seem to be objecting here to is the LOOK more than anything.  Thus it was interesting to me also when JB said the front left bunker on 9 had lost strategic interest over the years...

I guess the difference between us is I just accept that if JB says that, it's true, with no further details or proof needed!

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

I just said I never played the course to know a before and after there, as I never saw the before (or at least I don't remember it).

TH

Now I really am confused.

I thought you said that you had played CPC before and after the changes to the bunkers ?

Could you please clarify this for me ?

Thanks

[George Pazin]

I'm not as willing to accept definitive proclamations without inquiring to my satisfaction.

Tom Huckaby says that no strategic changes have occured, John Bernhardt feels differently.  I don't know if strategy has changed or remained the same, hence I ask questions in an attempt to learn more, BEFORE drawing a conclusion.

I think this is a big difference between us - I'm not looking to draw any conclusion from discussion amongst others. I try to enjoy it for what it is.

[ed_getka]

Patrick,
  I know you love being contrarian, but sometimes you get carried away. All the questions you have about the sand and bunker configuration are for what? Would you actually choose a different sand wedge to bring to CPC based on the information if you had it? Would it change the way you play the hole?
  Irregardless of specifics of sand type and bunker configuration, what most matters to most golfers in my experience is what you SEE. If you are intimidated about recovering from the new bunker it will affect the shot you choose to play or the angle you choose to play from.
   People form an opinion based on what they consider the pertinent information. If Tom Huckaby tells me he likes a course and I should go see it, then I will, without asking any more questions. Tom and I have golfed and talked enough together that he has a good idea of what I like. You would probably have 20 more questions, that is your right,and you will form an opinion when you have all your questions answered. Our approaches will be different, but we each will form an opinion that is comfortable for us personally. Ultimately, most opinions will be subjective, since most people will not have ALL the facts. That doesn't make one wrong and the other right, it is just an opinion. And like my mother used to say, "opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one".

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ed Getka,

All too often, a statement is made regarding work done or contemplated on a golf course and all hell breaks loose.

One only has to reference phantom changes to NGLA, the Merion threads, and now CPC.

To form an intelligent opinion, one should seperate fact from fiction.

When I asked if and how the new bunkers affected strategy, I never received what I thought was a comprehensive response.

Once an allegation is made, it's often difficult to remove the taint of the allegation, even though it may not be true.

Words should be measured carefully before passing one's lips, as once they're out, they can't be recalled.

George Pazin,

Do you not attach credibility or weight to different opinions ?
Does an opinion's basis in fact or fiction not concern you ?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom, let me make sure i did not state that wrong. Nine is much easier than before and is playable now. You tend to have a ball that runs a ways down stops along the way with an uphill bunker shot. I should never say a 20 plus foot high bunker is easy. lol The lies are not as severe now and the angle of the trap allows for one to only need some experience in the swiss alps to be comfortable in ones stance. lol As one knows the 2nd shot to nine especially the upper pin location is a real fun but has minimal room for error.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pat, would you please go to work for the Washington Post. You constant questions demanding details would have put Bush in jail by now or at least Chaney.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tiger Bernhardt,

Solidly founded opinions should be able to accept meaningful questions.

[ed_getka]

Patrick,
  Those are good points, but sometimes you just take the meaningful questions to the nth degree, to the point that they can't be answered very readily, if at all.
   I appreciate many of your posts and questions, as they force me to think through things more, which is a good thing.   :)However, by the 3rd or 4th barrage of questions it generally becomes tedious and exasperating.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ed Getka,

The discovery process can be tedious, but highly informative.

[ed_getka]

Patrick,
 At some point there is too little knowledge gained for the amount of work put in. Good night

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ed Getka,

You never find that out unless you continue to ask the questions, and you never know when a question, no matter what point in time it's asked, will lead to a significant revelation.

On this topic I initially asked four simple questions.
They have yet to be answered.

I wouldn't classify those queries as overly in depth or excessively intricate.

[Mike Hendren]

Boys, boys, boys

Interesting to compare Geoffrey's photograph on page one with the Michael Miller print and actual photograph in the course profile under "Courses By Country."   There are distinct differences.  Perhaps one of you rocket scientists could paste the three together.

Also, the self-called "studs" in Dr. Child's photograph would like you to think they're debating whether to pull the driver out of the bag on the ninth tee.  Actually, the following quote was overheard:  "I wonder what the poor people are doing today. Ain't it great to be great!"

As for the gallery of groupies, I know firsthand that the entire gallery that day consisted of one overweight redneck that had the time of his life and DID NOT LAY UP when offered a driver, tee and ball at the 16th.  Said ball was duly returned to its owner once the deed was done.

Regards,

Mike

[RJ_Daley]

I may have missed it in trying to read through the mind numbing interrogatories above.  But, did anyone mention who is doing the work beyond the crew having Geoff's book and pictures in their truck for reference?  Is there a supervising archie, and who are the contruction team?  I haven't seen this sort of construction approach before where a fiberglass and granite skeleton is placed with drainage slots, and then what ever they intend to do (bunkerwool?) before placing the sand.  I suspect the idea is to allow for native sea grasses to be incorporated withing the bunkers amongst hollows and hillocks of sand and the whole skeleton thing resists wind errosion from above and sand migration and contamination from below.  I'm only guessing.  But, where has this technique been done before to an acceptable result?  I wouldn't think a course of the stature of CPC would just pilot a trial and error shot in the dark.  

I also am interested in Mr Harwood's responses about the difficulty of defining the waste areas from bunkers.  How did they approach those definitions for the PGA competitions when they still had rounds from the Crosby being played there?  I can see where is must have been a nightmare of interpretations and local rules making.  

Finally, it just seems to me that if you are going to undertake the work as we see in the pictures, and there are people on the crew using old pics to restore or guide them in locations and shapes and looks that existed historically, you would want someone who has done this stuff in this kind of terrain and with this sort of interlace of native costal dunes grasses and wind before.  If they get baffled by the pictures and can't figure out the processes that caused the look to evolve to the most acceptable historical ideal, then I'd say you have a serious problem developing.  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

RJ like many 50 year old evolutions, short term memory can be a problem. We introduced ourselves and visited. I am almost sure I got his card. i will look and see if I can find it. It is not off to the desert.

[THuckaby2]

Mr. Hendren:

I'm sure you know the term "hoisted on one's own pitard."

That is what I have suffered at your hands.

Well, well, well done.

 

TH