Sanford Muni (NC): How much was/remains of Ross design?

[Philip Hensley]

What did Ross originally design there, and what remains today? Details are hard to come by.

From what I can gather (mostly from local sources, including current employees), Ross designed a 9-hole course that at sometime was expanded to 18 holes. I don't believe he did anything for the 2nd 9holes.

Of the current holes, current #8 was the old #1 hole. Current #9 was old #2. Current #10 was old #4. So somewhere you had to get from current #9 green to current #10 tee. I was told it was by a par 3. But not sure if current #10 tee was always located there.

Current #7 was the old #9 hole. After that the trail runs dead.

Current #1 hole seems to fit with the other holes in the original routing, but doesn't fit into that sequence anywhere. It isnt a cramped hole tucked into the edge of the property like the current #5 & #6.

The most interesting greens on the course are located on these holes. #10 is probably one of the hardest greens to putt. Most of the other greens are pretty bland.

Does anyone know any more info? Can anyone confirm the info I have thus far? Even though it's not among the best courses in the area, I've played it so often that I'm really curious about its history and design.

[Tyler Kearns]

Philip,

About a dozen of us played at Sanford Municipal as a warm-up round for the 2013 Dixie Cup.  The Ross history intrigued us and the $14 green fee lured us in.

Not sure where the clubhouse would have been located with a start at the current #8, although most likely across the road.  Certainly the original third hole could have played from the current clubhouse site downhill into the putting/chipping green area before continuing on to current #10 for the fourth.  Following the existing #3 through #7 gets us 9 holes that finish at the original starting point, but the extreme doglegs at #3 and #4 would be hard to justify, especially since Ross' strength lay in routing the golf course.  That would also leave a pretty large expanse of unused land where the current #1, #2 and #18 reside.

If the current clubhouse is original, I would assume the existing back nine was the 9-hole course designed by Ross.

TK

[Philip Hensley]

The clubhouse used to be across the road on the site that is now a family dollar/dollar general/whatever that store is. I'm fairly confident that the course started with the current #8 hole as #1 and ended with the current #7 hole as #9.

Although I wonder if the #8 green was always located there. I could see it being more in line with the current fairway and the current #9 tee a little left instead of offset to the right where it currently is.

I didn't think about the current putting green that you suggested but that would make sense. And I agree with you about the routing that's why I don't think holes #4-5 were original. They have too much of a "we're running out of room lets cram a couple holes over here" type of feel, whereas the current back 9 is pretty wide open. And there's defintely too much unused land where current #1,2, 18 reside to not have been something.

I could maybe see the 2nd part of the dogleg and up to the green part of #3 as original, but you're right the tee shot of that hole does not feel natural. Perhaps a hole ended where current #1 green is and then you teed off straight away to where current #3 fairway and green is. That would out near the current #7 (old #9) tee for the finishing hole.

With the exception of #10 I've never heard any of the other current back 9 holes being suggested as part of the original 9. I hope that's correct because the back 9 is rather boring to me.

I will laugh when one day it turns out none of the info I am presenting is correct and it turns out that indeed the current back 9 was the Ross design.

Speaking of the Dixie Cup, I ran across it in a search before I started this thread. Not to hijack my own thread, but what is the Dixie Cup and is there going to be one this year?

[Tyler Kearns]

Philip,

It's your thread, so no need to worry about hijacking it.

The Dixie Cup is an annual GCA event held in the SE USA pitting a north team versus a south team in a match play competition.  The date and location for this year's event has yet to be selected.  The 2013 event was my first Dixie Cup which was played at Tobacco Road & Dormie Club.  I was also able to play Pinehurst No. 2, Mid Pines & Sanford Municipal while there with a few GCA members.  Like other GCA events I've played in, the Dixie Cup was a lot of fun, the competition secondary to the wonderful camaraderie.

TK

[Jason Thurman]

Philip, I haven't played Sanford - I'm a Tobacco Road apologist personally.

Since I don't know the course, I don't totally trust my eyes to read the photos on HistoricAerials.com. However, they do have a 1965 aerial that appears to show the course in a 9 hole format. The clubhouse appears to be in the same location as today, and there is also a hole or two where today's driving range stands. The west end of today's driving range tee lies on top of an old Ross green, while another green was buried or abandoned on the west edge of the range itself maybe 115 yards ahead of today's tee. It looks like most of the new hole corridors are on the outskirts of the east and north ends of the property. There also appear to be a few new holes in that original course parcel, as will be explained further below.

A few notes on comparing the aerials against the current scorecard follow. Again, remember that I've never been on the property so my observations may be way off:

* If 8 was the original opening hole, it stopped being so prior to 1965 as the clubhouse is clearly in the same location today.
* The northern lake on the course was not there in 1965, nor was there a green just at the southwest edge of it. It looks like the hole playing through the corridor of today's hole 1 played on to today's 3rd green, so your observations on the second half of that dogleg appear correct.
* 8, 9, 10, and 18 look to be the only holes on the course that roughly follow their original corridor.
* There was once a par 3 just east of 9 that played to a green located very near the fairway bunker on 9 today. I'll call it hole X. I suspect there would have been a tee just right of that hole that then played on through the corridor of 1 up to the current 3rd green. I'll call it hole Y.
* In the corridor of today's 7th, there is clearly a green well short of one near the road today that I'll call hole Z. I can't tell where it teed off from, but I suspect it was in the clearing in the trees just behind the current third green. It appears there was at least a five hole loop that went hole X, hole Y, hole Z, current 8, current 9.
* There was a hole that appears to have played from the current 13th green, roughly, to the left side of today's driving range tee. Let's call it hole N. It looks to have been followed by a short par 3 that played from somewhere near the middle of today's driving range tee to a green in front of today's 10th tee that is now part of the driving range, which I will call hole D (for driving range). Today's 10th likely originally had a tee much closer to the water's edge. This gives you a four hole loop to complement the 5 hole loop above, this one going hole N, hole D, 10, and 18.

My best stab at the original routing is that it went hole N, hole D, 10, 18, hole X, hole Y, hole Z, 8, and 9. I would guess, looking at the photos, that the guy who told you 8 is the original hole 1 was misinformed. However, it is plausible that there could have been a clubhouse between Z green and the road, somewhere near where 7 green today is. It just seems unlikely to me, unless hole N originally had a tee closer to where the clubhouse sat in 1965 and still sits today. I doubt Ross would have had such a long transition from 9 green (which would have been 2, hypothetically) to N tee. Sadly, this leaves only four roughly original holes on the entire property, and only five original greens.

If you haven't already, take a look at HistoricAerials.com and do a search for 600 Golf Course Rd, Sanford, NC and see if you see something else in the 1965 aerial. I could be way off base and I'd like to hear from a set of eyes that have been there.

[Philip Hensley]

I'll join you as a fellow Tobacco Road apologist. I love that course, especially with the new greens.

I tried the aerial photos but I'm not able to see it clearly enough to tell what is what.

I think the clubhouse is what is throwing people off. We were told that the current clubhouse has always been the clubhouse. However, that does not mean that the clubhouse was always there.

The course was built in 1934. I have seen a postcard from around 1952 of the clubhouse, so it was there before 1965. But again it might not have existed when the course first opened.

The guy I'm getting my info from said the guy from the course he talked to was absolutely sure that current #8 was the old #1.

I think that you are correct about holes 8, 9, 10, 18.

The current driving range as a hole sounds plausible.

Current #13 works as a hole if you play it backwards, and if the green was located near the current putting green. That also brings your driving range hole into play since the next tee could be near that into that corridor.

My info guy also said they think they have an old photo of the original course laying around somewhere. He's going to try to get a pic next time he's around.

[Jason Thurman]

Philip, I'd encourage you to take a very close look at the aerial. It was pretty murky to me at first, as I could only pick out about six greens initially, but as I started looking more closely and playing with the "Compare" feature to cross the 1965 aerial with the 2006 aerial, it started to gradually become clearer how things fit. If you zoom in and follow the routing I outlined in the previous post, I think you'll see that it fits together pretty well and follows the aerial intuitively.

Let's look at the main body of the course first, excluding today's 7 and most of the 8th. Circled below is where I see 8 greens:



I believe, then, that the routing of this main body of the course would have been as follows (holes are labeled by the convention I used in my first post, beginning with hole N in the bottom left and proceeding to D, 10, 18, X, Y, 7 [not shown], 8 [green only shown], and 9):



Now, looking at the northwest corner of the property where 7 and 8 are located, here are the two greens I see in the aerial:



And the routing of those two holes (7 top, 8 bottom), presuming that 7 tee would be right behind hole Y's green from two photos ago (the current third green):



To really see all the greens, you'll likely have to zoom in closer than the photos above on the HistoricAerials.com viewer, but the photo is actually quite good compared to a lot of aerials and I think you'll see the detail plainly if you know where to look. It's actually a clearer picture than the two aerials from the '90s on the same website, which is surprising considering its age.

As for 8 being the original opening hole, I find that tough to believe without a firsthand source or some historic evidence. I doubt they would have opened the course without a clubhouse, and if the current clubhouse was also the original one, then I can't imagine players traversing some 700 yards from the clubhouse to tee off up by the road in the days before power carts and with no parking nearby. While it does appear that today's 7th green was originally a bit farther from the road, I'm not convinced that there's enough room between the road and the original green for cars to park and people to head out to play from that spot. I suppose it's possible, but it strikes me as unlikely. I'm still inclined to think that hole N was the original opener.

I'd be very interested to see the old photo of the original course or any other info.

[Philip Hensley]

Thanks for the drawings on the photos. That will definitely help me a lot. I'll check them out in detail later.

I agree on the clubhouse. You wouldn't make guys walk 700 yards to start and then end up in the same spot +50 yards back and make them walk back the same distance after they finished. I think the guy was trying to say that there was originally a starter shack of some kind across the road. So right now the clubhouse is throwing things off for me.

Another thing I hadn't considered, is that this photo was in 1965. It was built in 1934, Ross died in '47 or '48. Who knows what changes were made after he built it. Did he make any modifications? Was the course for the most part untouched as 9 holes until they added the 2nd 9 holes? I'm not sure when they went from 9 holes to 18 holes.

I'm going to get down there soon if for nothing else than to see what information or photos they have. I also put in a request with the Tufts archives to see if they have any drawings/photos.

[Philip Hensley]

This website shows 1938, 1950, and so on photos.

http://lee2.connectgis.com/Map.aspx

Type in the address and scroll down options on the right column to find different years AG photos

I think your routing is a strong possibility, especially based on current knowledge of the course.

We do know for a fact that your par 3 based on the current 1 hole is correct. A guy that works there said there was a par 3 green near a current fairway bunker of no. 9. And a postcard I've seen with the no.9 hole painting shows that same bunker.

I'm going to keep exploring options as far as getting a true drawing or design photo. I'll update when I do.

[Richard Hetzel]

I was hoping to play it back in November but our 18 hole round at Southern Pines CC took a bit longer than expected and by the time we finished, I did not have enough daylight to squeeze in another round. If it's Ross, it is worth playing once for me.

[Philip Hensley]

Are you from the area, or out of town?

I would never discourage one from experiencing a course on their own, but would not make playing this course a priority. However, if you are able to visit it during the week, a group of cartballer friends routinely play this course in 3.5 hours or less.

The course has been expanded to 18 holes and they are not particularly interesting. But the 9th hole is an original and I think it is one of the most deceptively "easy" 3-shooters that routinely is won with a bogey.

[Richard Hetzel]

Phil,

I live in Cincinnati. I never design a trip around these lesser known, neglected Ross courses. I do however try to "sneak in" extra courses when playing out of town. Luckily for me, my fiancé plays as well and is pretty cool about me sneaking in an extra 9 here and there. I bet Sanford  was not any worse than Tot Hill Farm I played the next day on the way back to Cincinnati

[Philip Hensley]

Way worse! Although I'm not a big Tot Hill fan.

BCowan send me a thread link to a photo tour of a Ross course in lumberton called Pine Crest. I too would not travel to play it but like you said there are some good courses like that that are a good fill-in course for a quick afternoon round. They are rarely busy that time of day.

Sanford does have the advantage of being right off the main rd that connects the Raleigh/Triangle region with Sanford. Although I'd still rather go a few extra miles and get in 9 at Tobacco Road.