Seminole, hard to improve, but, they did it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Not long ago someone initiated a thread on the new tees on # 1 and # 10 at Seminole.

In order to create these tees the halfway house had to be eliminated.

The halfway house was eliminated and relocated/repositioned into the existing clubhouse.
It looks like it's been there since inception.

The new "V" tee that serves # 1 and # 10 also looks like it's been there since inception.

And, the new tees have improved both holes.

The right side fairway bunker on # 1, a dogleg right, had become a vestigial feature, visible but no longer functional.
With the tee moved back, that bunker comes into play more frequently, requiring golfers to play down the center of
the fairway and not directly over the bunker toward the green.

That alone make the hole play longer.

And, instead of a 8-iron to wedge into the green, longer clubs are now required.
# 1 is no longer as benign as it used to be.

# 10, one of my favorite par 4's in golf has also gained added distance.
The juxtaposition of the lake/pond on the left, to the DZ, used to require certain golfers to lay up off the tee.
The added length has somewhat mitigated that tactic, but, those that do, are now left with a longer shot into
one of the most benign looking, yet treacherous greens/surrounds in golf.

While the wind was in my face, I was shocked that after a decent drive, I had 180 playing 200 into that green.
That green is mostly fronted by water that wraps around the left side of the green.  There are bunkers right and
the green slopes back to front and toward the water from the mid-point.  Approaching that green is now more frightening than ever

In talking to a member, he mentioned that he always used to drive down the left side of the fairway to give him a better angle into the green, but, that now, with the longer carry, that shot has become far more difficult and he's changed his tactic on the drive to go down the center or right center, and, that he's often content to play short and rely on getting up and down for par, and settling for bogey should he fail.

What seems like a minor change has had a dramatic, positive effect on the play of the hole.

And, if you never played there before, you'd never know it was any different.

Brilliant change, I wonder who thought of it.

[Tom_Doak]

Brilliant change, I wonder who thought of it.

Donald Ross thought of it, they told me it was on his original plan for the course.

Ben Crenshaw was the one who noticed it was there and suggested the change.

It's cool, but hardly a game-changer.  That said, Seminole really does not need a game-changer.

[Tyler Kearns]

Pat,

Here is Ross' plan drawing for Seminole, showing the shared tees for holes No. 1 & 10;



TK

[JWL]

Nice plan...thanks for posting.   Considerable amount of bunkering changes since this was drawn.   

[Jay Flemma]

That was the first thing I noticed when I got there - the double tee reminded me of the double tee at 9/18 at Old Town, though at OT the holes actually criss-cross and the tees can be moved to much wider angles.  The tees at Seminole are more like the runway style we saw Jones, Sr. use.  That tee box on nine, for example, has to be about 120 yards long!

JL, the bunkering is diabolical.  While the green speeds weren't so fast you had to worry about putting into one, they are deep...seriously deep.   You can pull a Saddam Hussein - go from bunker to bunker - if you hit one thin, or have it roll back to your feet if you hit it chunky.  Here are some pics:

This is 13 - see how far below the level of the green the ball sits in the bunkers?



Here's another example where yu can not ony see how far below the level of thegreen you are, but how you have to carry the ball to the green in the air and how everything slopes off around the green into bunkers or a tough pitch shot from the rough.

[Mike Hendren]

Tyler, thanks for posting. Everyone else: FWIW Ross' original plan on linen is available for viewing upon request at the Tufts Archives in Pinehurst.  Highly recommend a little time there.

Bogey

[Kevin_Reilly]

I just checked Nearmaps, and they have a satellite aerial of the course updated as of December 18, 2014 so you can see the dual tee.  Interesting that the tee is bisected by a DG cart path.

The address to search is 901 Seminole Boulevard, North Palm Beach, FL 33408, USA.  As mentioned in a recent thread, it is worth signing up for a free membership for the Nearmap aerials.

http://us.nearmap.com/

[Mark Bourgeois]

Failure to fix ball equals need for new tee. Halfway house was in the way, so no more halfway house. Cover story: Ross double tee. (The Ross double tee on his plan was yards in front of this double tee. The new double tee doesn't even share the same shape as Ross's.)

[Jay Flemma]

Actually Mark, they just moved the half way house a little ways.  It's still just steps from the tee. 

[JESII]

Shiv,

Not exactly.

The tenth still offers the full width of the fairway for different level of golfers to find ideal under the varying wind and ground conditions and hole locations. The one example is simply that, one example.

This should make a simple "cut the corner because there's no reason not to" driver / wedge into a more challenging hole simply for that percentage of golfers that used to be able to carry the corner that now cannot. Is harder always better? Nope. Is this hole better? Probably.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Delete

[BCrosby]

Having played Seminole a couple of times recently, the new double back tee for 1 and 10 doesn't feel like a modern add-on, the added distance is a good thing on both holes, but the tee isn't a big change and does not merit much discussion. 

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

Having played Seminole a couple of times recently, the new double back tee for 1 and 10 doesn't feel like a modern add-on, the added distance is a good thing on both holes, but the tee isn't a big change and does not merit much discussion. 

Bob,

Your game must have improved dramatically.

When I go from hitting an 8-iron or a 6-iron to a 3-wood, that merits discussion.

The difference in the play of # 10 is nothing short of dramatic even though the alteration would seem invisible to the first time golfer.

The fact that # 1 is similarly impacted also merit discussion, despite the lack of dire consequences for not properly executing your approach.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Failure to fix ball equals need for new tee. Halfway house was in the way, so no more halfway house. Cover story: Ross double tee. (The Ross double tee on his plan was yards in front of this double tee. The new double tee doesn't even share the same shape as Ross's.)

Mark,

Neither do a dozen other tees and a few greens.
Remember, the Ross schematic is just a drawing and not an asbuilt.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Let me understand this...

They lengthened a couple of holes and made the angles such that you play more toward the middle of the fairway than being rewarded for choosing a side and executing on it ...

Shivas,

Are your conclusions drawn from your playing experiences or just wild conjecture ?

You don't have to play more toward the middle, in fact, I favor the right side on # 10.

Do you think that Donald Ross misplaced his hazards ?

Do you think that it's better to have those hazards in play or that they just be eye candy ?


How is this a good thing?

It's a good thing that your opinion is without merit.

[BCrosby]

Pat -

Both holes were lengthened. They are now a little harder, which happens when holes are lengthened.

That's a nice but not a big improvement.

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat -

Both holes were lengthened. They are now a little harder, which happens when holes are lengthened.

That's a nice but not a big improvement.

Bob,

I'd disagree on # 10 where I think the change has had a substantive impact on the play of the hole.

On # 1, I know decent golfers who used to fly the first right side bunker, who now have to give it it's due respect, as Donald Ross
intended, so, I have to think that there's been a significant improvement on both holes.

I'd be interested to know how the members and caddies have observed and perceived the impact on play.

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, any hole whose fairway hazards are flyovers is better from lengthening because the hazards come back into play.  In the micro world.  But when you add up all those micro positives, what you get is a macro negative.

Shivas, what's the "macro negative" ? 

That's what I'm getting at. 

Seminole did nothing that a few thousand other clubs have done, to the detriment of golfers and the game. 

Since when is restoring an original hole design a negative ?

How is what Seminole did a "to the detriment of  golfers and the game " ?

It's a wonderful improvement that now makes both holes play as Ross intended.

What am I missing that you see ?

I'm surprised you aren't seeing that. 

Maybe I'm not seeing it because it's not there

Shivas,

Do you mean like NGLA lengthening the 8th tee so that the centerline bunkers are now back in play ?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Restored?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Restored?

Yes, restored to the original design, just like Aronomink did by restoring their course to Donald Ross's original design.

Perhaps someone with earlier aerials can determine if the "V" tee was ever built.
There's an aerial depicting Claude Harmon's 1947 round, but, I don't know the year it was taken or what the configuration of the tees looked like

[Anthony_Nysse]