[Terry Lavin]

In the past couple of year I've been lucky enough to play Pine Valley, NGLA, Chicago, Cypress Point and Cal Club amongst many others. I'd guess 95+% of the average golf market hasn't heard of any of them. Mention Cypress is near Pebble Beach and everyone knows where you are talking about. A Lido impression will be of interest to 0.1% of the market, it doesn't interest me. The GCA market is extremely niche.

95% of the average GB&I golfers don't know of Cypress Point. Judging by my trip to GB&I, 100% of the average GB&I golfers don't know of Bandon Dunes. However, you might nearly have to take the inverses of those numbers when talking to the average US golfer.

God help the analysis if you're the "average US golfer."

[Patrick_Mucci]

To the vast majority of golfers, hearing that Streamsong has built a replica of Lido will have less appeal than if they were told that Streamsong was building another Tour 18. Nobody cares.

David,

What you and others don't understand is that neither Streamsong, Bandon nor Kohler care or cater to the vast majority of golfers.

They care about and want to cater to that portion of the golfing spectrum that will travel to a destination golf resort and stay and play there.

And that portion of the spectrum knows about Kohler, Bandon and Steamsong.

That portion of the spectrum was keenly interested in the concept and creation of Old Macdonald at Bandon.

That portion of the spectrum made the trek to Bandon to see and play the newest addition at Bandon and that portion of the spectrum will have a keen interest in the creaton of Lido at Streamsong.

Destination golfers aren't as uninformed as you and others seem to feel.

Don't ever sell good to great architecture short, especially to destination golfers.

[Mike_Young]

Pat,
I'm not sure about the destination golfer.  I think there are two types.  There is "he Pebble Beach" type and the "Cypress Point" type.  And I don't know where Streamsong fits.  Now none of that assumption has to do with the quality of the golf at Streamsong.  The "Pebble Beach" guy will play TPC Sawgrass, PGA National and maybe another Florida TPC course for a golf trip.  He has no idea what Lido is.  The "Cypress Point" guy will do Indian Creek, Seminole, Mountain Lake and maybe Timaquana.  I'm just not sure of the market but obviously people that know much more than myself have that figured...

[Bill Brightly]

To the vast majority of golfers, hearing that Streamsong has built a replica of Lido will have less appeal than if they were told that Streamsong was building another Tour 18. Nobody cares.

Sadly, you are probably right. But I'm an optimist and I say a Lido replica will generate much more interest in 2018 than it would have in 1998. Especially if they do a good job marketing it and explaining the history behind the templates.

The 4 courses at Streamsong will surely generate a lot of play. So it's a good thing that a little golf course architecture education will occur, even if by accident...

[Bill Brightly]

Pat,
I'm not sure about the destination golfer.  I think there are two types.  There is "he Pebble Beach" type and the "Cypress Point" type.  And I don't know where Streamsong fits.  Now none of that assumption has to do with the quality of the golf at Streamsong.  The "Pebble Beach" guy will play TPC Sawgrass, PGA National and maybe another Florida TPC course for a golf trip.  He has no idea what Lido is.  The "Cypress Point" guy will do Indian Creek, Seminole, Mountain Lake and maybe Timaquana.  I'm just not sure of the market but obviously people that know much more than myself have that figured...

Mike, I use myself as an example. Middle-aged baby boomer who belongs to a private club in the Northeast with the means to pay SS's rates. What I do NOT want to do is buy a condo or house in Florida and plop down $100,000 to $250,000 to join a private club, especially for the typical courses that are on the ground in Florida. ( I think my  generation is far less inclined to be committed to one warm weather location.) So I'll pay SS prices for a 4-5 day trip, enjoy being able to walk, and I'll have no problem getting 7 other guys from my club to fill out my group.

I think that scenario will be played out at club after club in the Northeast.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Just so we fully understand.  You never set foot on the Lido.  Is this correct or not? 

It's not correct.

If it is correct, you are operating on second hand knowledge and hearsay. 

But, it's not correct.

What you know is reputation. 
Your opinion on the Lido is therefore, next to useless. 
Anybody can read the stuff you know in a book.
So that neatly and comprehensively sums up your knowledge of Lido.

No, it doesn't.
And as usual, you don't know what you're talking about. 

The rest of the rubbish you spout on the subject is a waste of time. 
Care to move on to the next load of rubbish you dispense? 

Like for instance, comparing how great a yet to be built course is to a long since gone course which you never saw?

I never stated that the yet to be built course was great, only that if Lido was replicated it would be great.
There is a difference, have someone explain it to you.

Get a grip man.  At least act as though you are grounded in reality. 
With that, I leave the discussion to you. 
You are at your best when arguing with yourself.

At least I'll be having a debate with an intelligent, well informed person.

[Garland Bayley]

Just so we fully understand.  You never set foot on the Lido.  Is this correct or not? 

It's not correct.

...

Which Lido Pat?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Just so we fully understand.  You never set foot on the Lido.  Is this correct or not?

It's not correct.
...

Which Lido Pat?



Garland,

You would have to introduce that qualifier   But, then again, you know the answer

[Mark Chaplin]

With the average American tourist thinking it odd why the Queen "built" Windsor Castle under the flight path of Heathrow airport, I hold out little hope the average American golfer will understand much about templates behind holes 😉.

Terry - I can do average, I once and it was only once played a course where you took your clubs out of the trunk of the car and had to carry them the the pro shop to get your cart. Never been so ashamed in my life...

[J Sadowsky]

FWIW:

https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-lido-at-86481901.html

Same day filing:

https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-86481872.html

[Mark Fedeli]

FWIW:

https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-lido-at-86481901.html

Same day filing:

https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-86481872.html

Wow. Between this and Doak's reversible course, the next few years are going to be really special for GCA geeks.

[Rees Milikin]

FWIW:

https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-lido-at-86481901.html

Same day filing:

https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-86481872.html

Maybe living in FL isn't so bad after all...maybe.

[George Freeman]

FWIW:

https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-lido-at-86481901.html

Same day filing:

https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-86481872.html

Yahtzee

[Tony Ristola]

Would the south and Bermuda be ideal for a New Lido?  Wouldn't a northern climate and fescue/bents be superior?

[Steve Lapper]

Would the south and Bermuda be ideal for a New Lido?  Wouldn't a northern climate and fescue/bents be superior?

Tony,

   I don't see it making enough of a difference to outweigh the difference in land acquisition costs along with the brain damage incurred to get the permits to build such a re-creation anywhere up North.

[Greg Tallman]

Would the south and Bermuda be ideal for a New Lido?  Wouldn't a northern climate and fescue/bents be superior?

Tony,

   I don't see it making enough of a difference to outweigh the difference in land acquisition costs along with the brain damage incurred to get the permits to build such a re-creation anywhere up North.

Sand Valley?

[jeffwarne]

Would the south and Bermuda be ideal for a New Lido?  Wouldn't a northern climate and fescue/bents be superior?

There is no bent grass that I've played anywhere that is as firm and fast as Streamsong is right now.
It's firm and fast, not just tight- and not tight and wet.
Ground game options abound, and the firmness is similar to the fescues of the UK

[Eric Smith]

Would the south and Bermuda be ideal for a New Lido?  Wouldn't a northern climate and fescue/bents be superior?

There is no bent grass that I've played anywhere that is as firm and fast as Streamsong is right now.
It's firm and fast, not just tight- and not tight and wet.
Ground game options abound, and the firmness is similar to the fescues of the UK

Same at Pinehurst #2 right now. Glorious playing surface.

[jeffwarne]

Would the south and Bermuda be ideal for a New Lido?  Wouldn't a northern climate and fescue/bents be superior?

There is no bent grass that I've played anywhere that is as firm and fast as Streamsong is right now.
It's firm and fast, not just tight- and not tight and wet.
Ground game options abound, and the firmness is similar to the fescues of the UK

Same at Pinehurst #2 right now. Glorious playing surface.

Ice?

[Eric Smith]

Maybe? Let me back up and say last weekend's playing surface was glorious!

[jeffwarne]

Maybe? Let me back up and say last weekend's playing surface was glorious!

actually 68 on Sunday coming up-wow

[Josh Tarble]

I'm very excited about the possibility of the Lido course and I think it will be a seriously good investment for Streamsong.  Not only will it get the golf cognoscenti fired up, but it allows SS to market "Come play the greatest course that never was"  They will be able to scream how good it is, because not many are even really sure HOW good the original Lido was.

[Jud_T]

From Matty G. last year:

"if the new Lido course ever gets built, Doak would be the obvious choice. He has extensive knowledge of Macdonald's template holes and along with former partner Jim Urbina, built Old Macdonald at Bandon Dunes, which was an homage to "the father of American golf architecture."

Question-  If the course is in fact going to be a fairly exact replica and not a reinterpretation a la Old Mac, 1) How do you sell a big name GCA on taking this project on and 2) how is it then attributed?

[John Connolly]

It is well-accepted there are a myriad of reasons why courses are great. To simply assume a Lido redux can inspire golfers to a similar degree the original did (although that now seems to be a matter of some discussion), would seem, at best presumptuous and at worst foolhardy. Can an architect, even one of the current greats, simply lift the long since vanished course from its ocean home and drop it into the middle of Florida and achieve the same level of inspiration? Perhaps a version of it. Like repainting "The Last Supper". Surely, gca is more complicated than that. For it to be great, it has to play great. It just might be the ultimate bait and switch.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Connolly,

Obviously you've never played the "Short" course at Pine Valley.

Today, replication isn't a difficult feat if you have the land, money, permits along with a competent architect

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