Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.

[Bill Brightly]

Here's a pretty good old thread about Lido, including comments by the later great George Bahto:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35406.0.html

[Patrick_Mucci]

Carson, there is definitely a shuttle (or two or three) that runs between the lodge and the clubhouse on a regular basis. It was one of my favorite perks of being there. But I agree with you wholeheartedly on breakfast. Two things are wrong with P205 as a breakfast venue: (1) the outdoors is completely blocked from view in the restaurant, and (2) there is no buffet. I wasn't a big fan of Fifty-Nine (the restaurant at the clubhouse) either. Thankfully, SottoTerra finally opened our last night, and it was amazing.

That is great to hear.  I must have been one of the early guests in the hotel because they definitely did not have it figured out.  No shuttle, and valet sometimes took 20 minutes to get your car.  Pretty frustrating after an hour breakfast to then have to worry about making your tee time at all; much less time to warm up.

Carson & Benjamin,

The shuttle was at the door and ready to roll within a few minutes every time we needed it, from the hotel to the clubhouse and back.

We had breakfast at the clubhouse and had no problem with the service or the food.
Ditto lunch and dinner.

On the other hand, I preferred the food at Bandon on my earlier visit versus the food recently.
I think that's an area for improvement.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve Lapper,

They just don't get it.

It's true that few golfers are aware of Lido.

But then again, few golfers are aware of NGLA.

If Streamsong duplicated NGLA do you think the interest in visiting Streamsong would increase ?
Do you think that word of mouth would trumpet the new "NGLA"

NGLA is a spectacular golf course.

Lido was a spectacular golf course.

Duplicate Lido and they will come.

They don't have to know the history.
One play and they'll be sold.
One play and they'll trumpet the merits of "Lido" or the "Green" or whatever you want to call it.

It's the quality of the finished product that's critical, not it's name.

And, if the finished product replicates Lido, it will be a quality product that will attract legions of golfers, near and far.

Steve, please explain that to the moronic non-believers.

[Jerry Kluger]

Did the Lido course exist after WWII?  It does seem that much of the fascination with the course was the engineering/construction part of it and Raynor was given credit for that.  Was it really better than NGLA?  Or how would it compare with some of Raynor's courses like Fishers or Yeamans, etc.? Or is it the fact that it no longer exists which causes us to believe it was such a great course from a design point of view? 

[Jim Nugent]

Some comments in Dan King's thread about Lido -- that Bill Brightly linked above -- suggest the Lido course itself was probably overrated.  George Bahto says that, and apparently the finished course disappointed CBM himself.  The press back then was enamored of the engineering marvels needed to build Lido. 

As Tom Doak said in that thread, "That last statement makes me wonder for the first time whether Lido was really as good as it was cracked up to be, or whether some of its #2 ranking was simply awe over the scope of the project and how it came to be, much like Shadow Creek."

If Lido was not in fact a fantastic course, that puts a different slant on whether Mosaic should try to recreate it. 

[Sean_A]

Duplicate Lido and they will come.

Or build any great course and they will come.  The fact is, none of you have a clue how good Lido was.  Its a geek/marketing excercise that is short term mildly appealing.  After a short while, the course will either be considered worth playing or not based on the merits of the design, not the history of the name. 

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

In the past couple of year I've been lucky enough to play Pine Valley, NGLA, Chicago, Cypress Point and Cal Club amongst many others. I'd guess 95+% of the average golf market hasn't heard of any of them. Mention Cypress is near Pebble Beach and everyone knows where you are talking about. A Lido impression will be of interest to 0.1% of the market, it doesn't interest me. The GCA market is extremely niche.

[Jud_T]

Question for the purists:  if George had the original plans and an exact replica can be built, what would you do about the fact that the course tipped out at 6406 yards with a par of 72?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Duplicate Lido and they will come.

Or build any great course and they will come. 

The fact is, none of you have a clue how good Lido was. 

The fact is that you're wrong.

Old friends of mine, now deceased, played and belonged to Lido.

They told me how fabulous Lido was and they played all of the great courses in the Metropolitan New York area and were members of a number of good golf courses during their lives

Its a geek/marketing excercise that is short term mildly appealing. 

That's just your opinion, one absent any concept regarding the merits of Lido

After a short while, the course will either be considered worth playing or not based on the merits of the design, not the history of the name. 
So you're telling us, without an iota of relevant information, that Lido wasn't a good golf course.
Upon what personal information did you make that determination.

Lido was a great golf course and as any moron knows, if you duplicate a great golf course, the duplicate will be great.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Question for the purists:  if George had the original plans and an exact replica can be built, what would you do about the fact that the course tipped out at 6406 yards with a par of 72?

Jud,

Some moron has broken into your computer and is posting on GCA.com under your name.

[Jud_T]

Question for the purists:  if George had the original plans and an exact replica can be built, what would you do about the fact that the course tipped out at 6406 yards with a par of 72?

Jud,

Some moron has broken into your computer and is posting on GCA.com under your name.

So not duplicating it then...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Question for the purists:  if George had the original plans and an exact replica can be built, what would you do about the fact that the course tipped out at 6406 yards with a par of 72?

Jud,

Some moron has broken into your computer and is posting on GCA.com under your name.

So not duplicating it then...

Jud, he's on your computer right now, stop him before he elevates your moron status

[Sean_A]

Duplicate Lido and they will come.

Or build any great course and they will come. 

The fact is, none of you have a clue how good Lido was. 

The fact is that you're wrong.

Old friends of mine, now deceased, played and belonged to Lido.

They told me how fabulous Lido was and they played all of the great courses in the Metropolitan New York area and were members of a number of good golf courses during their lives

Its a geek/marketing excercise that is short term mildly appealing. 

That's just your opinion, one absent any concept regarding the merits of Lido

After a short while, the course will either be considered worth playing or not based on the merits of the design, not the history of the name. 
So you're telling us, without an iota of relevant information, that Lido wasn't a good golf course.
Upon what personal information did you make that determination.

Lido was a great golf course and as any moron knows, if you duplicate a great golf course, the duplicate will be great.

Pat

So friends of yours knew about the quality of Lido...you do not...is this correct?  Living vicariously is not the same as personal experience...you have made that quite clear in the past. 

You truly are a moron with the reading comprehension of a 4 year idiot.  Please cite where I said Lido wasn't great or that a homage couldn't be great. 

Stop your bold face lies.  I, nor do you, have any idea of a duplicate Lido will be great. You are guessing based on your limited, second hand experience. 

Please sharpen you skills before wasting green.  You are tiresome.

Ciao

[Bill Brightly]

Streamsong Red and Blue are both outstanding golf courses.

Let's assume that Gil can build one in the same class.

Let's assume that a skilled architect is hired to re-create Lido and he does an excellent job.

We know that Macdonald's holes are great, throw in Raynor's Prize, and we KNOW there will be 18 superb new holes on the property. And this course will present a beautifully contrasting style to the C &C, Doak and Hanse courses.

Jerry might be right, perhaps a signiifcant percentage of golfers won't know or care about C.B. Macdonald. So what? If that is the case, it certianly did not hinder Old Macdonald quickly rising to top ten Modern status.

Four courses of this quality, four options for early morning tee times. This is a can't miss proposition.

[Garland Bayley]

In the past couple of year I've been lucky enough to play Pine Valley, NGLA, Chicago, Cypress Point and Cal Club amongst many others. I'd guess 95+% of the average golf market hasn't heard of any of them. Mention Cypress is near Pebble Beach and everyone knows where you are talking about. A Lido impression will be of interest to 0.1% of the market, it doesn't interest me. The GCA market is extremely niche.

95% of the average GB&I golfers don't know of Cypress Point. Judging by my trip to GB&I, 100% of the average GB&I golfers don't know of Bandon Dunes. However, you might nearly have to take the inverses of those numbers when talking to the average US golfer.

[Mark Chaplin]

They've all heard of Myrtle Beach but Bandon doesn't advertise in the UK, not that I buy golf magazines! But when we have the best links in the world so it's not worth travelling for 15 hours to play an impersonator.

[Patrick_Mucci]

They've all heard of Myrtle Beach but Bandon doesn't advertise in the UK, not that I buy golf magazines!
But when we have the best links in the world so it's not worth travelling for 15 hours to play an impersonator.

Mark,

I don't think that Bandon's or Streamsong's future hangs in the balance, depending upon play from the UK.

Replica holes are highly valued, why not golf courses ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Duplicate Lido and they will come.

Or build any great course and they will come. 

The fact is, none of you have a clue how good Lido was. 

The fact is that you're wrong.

Old friends of mine, now deceased, played and belonged to Lido.

They told me how fabulous Lido was and they played all of the great courses in the Metropolitan New York area and were members of a number of good golf courses during their lives

Its a geek/marketing excercise that is short term mildly appealing. 

That's just your opinion, one absent any concept regarding the merits of Lido

After a short while, the course will either be considered worth playing or not based on the merits of the design, not the history of the name. 
So you're telling us, without an iota of relevant information, that Lido wasn't a good golf course.
Upon what personal information did you make that determination.

Lido was a great golf course and as any moron knows, if you duplicate a great golf course, the duplicate will be great.

Pat

So friends of yours knew about the quality of Lido

Yes, they played it on many, many occassions.

...you do not...is this correct?

NO. 

Living vicariously is not the same as personal experience...you have made that quite clear in the past. 

It's not a case of living vicariouslly, it's a matter of having well respected people inform you of the merits of a golf course.

Ron Forse, on numerous occassions has related the details of a golf course to me from an architectural and playability perspective.
Should I disregard his intellect, experience and talent based assessment ?
That's what you want me to do in order to defend your mistake.

And, when I get feedback from golfers with in depth personal experience, combined with in depth discussions with George Bahto, one begins to get a feel for what was created.  It's not like I formulated my opinions in a vacuum as you're prone to do.

You truly are a moron with the reading comprehension of a 4 year idiot. 
Please cite where I said Lido wasn't great or that a homage couldn't be great. 

You stated that I didn't have a clue as to how good Lido was, and you were wrong.
You stated that it was a geek/marketing exercise......... and you are wrong.
You stated that "Lidoizing it is just some sugar in top for geeks."  and you are wrong.

Stop your bold face lies. 

Those are your words, are they not ?

I, nor do you, have any idea of a duplicate Lido will be great.

Wrong again.
I know it would be great, just like a duplicate NGLA would be great.


You are guessing based on your limited, second hand experience.

I'm not guessing, I'm relying on the opinions of several fellows who played Lido extensively in combination with length discussions with George Bahto.  I've done my research while you remain clueless. 

Please sharpen you skills before wasting green.  You are tiresome.

I guess when you don't have a clue as to what you present as The Gospel, you resort to the tiresome routine.

So, who knows more about Lido, YOU ? or me ?

[Garland Bayley]

They've all heard of Myrtle Beach but Bandon doesn't advertise in the UK, not that I buy golf magazines! But when we have the best links in the world so it's not worth travelling for 15 hours to play an impersonator.

If you haven't played all the links in the world, how can you conclude you have the best?

Pat Mucci

[David Kelly]

To the vast majority of golfers, hearing that Streamsong has built a replica of Lido will have less appeal than if they were told that Streamsong was building another Tour 18. Nobody cares.

[Tom_Doak]

The thing that nobody talks about when they talk about Lido is the setting of the original course.

The course ran from the Atlantic Ocean on one side [the par-3 8th played along the oceanfront, overlooked by the clubhouse] to the Intracoastal Waterway on the other side, which the famous 4th hole played along.  That would be like having a course that stretched across the barrier strip in Palm Beach.  Imagine how highly such a course would be rated today:  it would be right up there with Pine Valley and National, as Lido was ranked in its day.

I think it would be cool if someone could reproduce the original 18 holes of Lido in a new setting, but the setting is never going to be as appealing as the original.

[DMoriarty]

But wasn't the Lido's setting a blessing and a curse, because of erosion and property value?

A Lido somewhere else might be more sustainable.

[Sean_A]

Duplicate Lido and they will come.

Or build any great course and they will come. 

The fact is, none of you have a clue how good Lido was. 

The fact is that you're wrong.

Old friends of mine, now deceased, played and belonged to Lido.

They told me how fabulous Lido was and they played all of the great courses in the Metropolitan New York area and were members of a number of good golf courses during their lives

Its a geek/marketing excercise that is short term mildly appealing. 

That's just your opinion, one absent any concept regarding the merits of Lido

After a short while, the course will either be considered worth playing or not based on the merits of the design, not the history of the name. 
So you're telling us, without an iota of relevant information, that Lido wasn't a good golf course.
Upon what personal information did you make that determination.

Lido was a great golf course and as any moron knows, if you duplicate a great golf course, the duplicate will be great.

Pat

So friends of yours knew about the quality of Lido

Yes, they played it on many, many occassions.

...you do not...is this correct?

NO. 

Living vicariously is not the same as personal experience...you have made that quite clear in the past. 

It's not a case of living vicariouslly, it's a matter of having well respected people inform you of the merits of a golf course.

Ron Forse, on numerous occassions has related the details of a golf course to me from an architectural and playability perspective.
Should I disregard his intellect, experience and talent based assessment ?
That's what you want me to do in order to defend your mistake.

And, when I get feedback from golfers with in depth personal experience, combined with in depth discussions with George Bahto, one begins to get a feel for what was created.  It's not like I formulated my opinions in a vacuum as you're prone to do.

You truly are a moron with the reading comprehension of a 4 year idiot. 
Please cite where I said Lido wasn't great or that a homage couldn't be great. 

You stated that I didn't have a clue as to how good Lido was, and you were wrong.
You stated that it was a geek/marketing exercise......... and you are wrong.
You stated that "Lidoizing it is just some sugar in top for geeks."  and you are wrong.

Stop your bold face lies. 

Those are your words, are they not ?

I, nor do you, have any idea of a duplicate Lido will be great.

Wrong again.
I know it would be great, just like a duplicate NGLA would be great.


You are guessing based on your limited, second hand experience.

I'm not guessing, I'm relying on the opinions of several fellows who played Lido extensively in combination with length discussions with George Bahto.  I've done my research while you remain clueless. 

Please sharpen you skills before wasting green.  You are tiresome.

I guess when you don't have a clue as to what you present as The Gospel, you resort to the tiresome routine.

So, who knows more about Lido, YOU ? or me ?

Just so we fully understand.  You never set foot on the Lido.  Is this correct or not?  If it is correct, you are operating on second hand knowledge and hearsay.  What you know is reputation.  Your opinion on the Lido is therefore, next to useless.  Anybody can read the stuff you know in a book. So that neatly and comprehensively sums up your knowledge of Lido.  The rest of the rubbish you spout on the subject is a waste of time. 

Care to move on to the next load of rubbish you dispense?  Like for instance, comparing how great a yet to be built course is to a long since gone course which you never saw?  Get a grip man.  At least act as though you are grounded in reality. 

With that, I leave the discussion to you.  You are at your best when arguing with yourself.

Ciao

[Michael Moore]

I don't think that a strip mine will ever surpass Kiawah, La Quinta, etc. as "the" warm-weather getaway resort.

[Peter Pallotta]

So all this has been about the potential of *recreating* a great golf course? A slippery slope, don't you think? I mean, you might just end up having to agree with my contention (made partly in jest, in my 'no excuse' thread) that only a *stellar* golf course is acceptable nowadays, and that to achieve it you don't even need an architect but only a *mimic*, an *impressionist* or best of all a *thief* with very good taste.  It's sort of sad, a kind of tacit admission that Hollywood is *right* to focus on remakes -- and that it's only wrong because it keeps remaking (stealing from) less than stellar films.

Geez - I'm starting to understand why JK is the way he is, ie it's hard being the smartest guy in the room.

Peter