Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.

[Sean_A]

Other than a big immediate splash, do folks think anybody will care what the Lido represents?  Does anybody care about Old Mac being a homage or is it just another course at the resort?

Ciao

[Matt MacIver]

My belief is Old Mac adds somewhere between 1-2 minutes to a non gca-devotees conversation, as will Lido. A cherrie on top, at most, but if it prolongs the conversation or interest an ounce it's all good.

To compete Cabot and Sand Valley will be forced to consider island greens, waterfalls and helicopter-access tee boxes.

[Steve Lapper]

Other than a big immediate splash, do folks think anybody will care what the Lido represents?  Does anybody care about Old Mac being a homage or is it just another course at the resort?

Ciao

Sean,

   No doubt, few folks (other than GCA aficianados) will care much about the historical significance of a Lido. What they will care about, IMO, is the fun and/or difficulty or new factor.

   On the surface that sounds like an oxymoron, but in reality it's not. A good number of ardent golfers desire a fresh challenge. They can't wait to tee it up at Kiawah Ocean, Whistling Straits, Bethpage Black, Sawgrass etc. Those players revel in trying their hand at a brute. Its practically the DNA of quite a few sub 15 hcps. Golf developers and marketeers know this and have spend a hefty sum promoting a course's resistance to scoring. Like a ski resort advertising the # of black diamond runs, the audience for it remains considerable and passionate.

   On the other hand, a slightly greater number of golfers want new, fun, and different. They want fun, playability and interesting aesthetics. Sheer difficulty doesn't attract them, nor does some over-hyped occasional PGA-tour stop marketing crap. Female golfers, for the most part, share this view. Fun-seeking golfers desire amenities and higher quality service. They want to know that if they end up taking a lot of swings, they'll be enjoying the course and the culture of that venue. Scoring becomes almost secondary to pleasure. Anecdotally, my wife and her girlfriends love Streamsong for this reason as much or more than I do!

   It's my opinion that Streamsong and Bandon offer up a healthy dose of both and the former's location can do an even better job of serving the it's seasonally-dominated golfers market. Adding a Lido to Streamsong...if it happens...along with the coming Black course, will likely provide a wide enough spectrum  of solid golf experience for everyone's taste. I know it'll be easier for me to round up even larger groups of Northeast golfing mates for a multi-day trip than it is now.

   Personally, I've found the service (on both the hotel and golf operations sides) to have improved considerably over last year. While I agree both operators could better serve Mosaic with tighter coordination, no newly branded institutional hospitality product "gets it perfect" in it's inception. Rich Mack and his team are doing a very good job of trying hard to get there. Bandon wasn't perfect either when it opened, but eventually they ironed out their kinks and now well deserves it's stellar reputation.

  Ultimately, I believe the bigger issues at Streamsong (i.e.. pricing, cart access for the older set, and hotel occupancy) will resolve themselves. Little things (i.e. benches outside by the clubhouse, some food inconsistencies....tho I did find it mostly better than last year) will work out as well. I will say that as a NJ family that avoids the idea of owning a specific second home anywhere just yet, we just love what Streamsong is turning into and looks to become.  

[Sean_A]

Okay, so the big challenge is layed out.  I ask again, does it matter if it is a Lido?  I seriously doubt it will matter a tosh to the bottom line, but any marketing is god marketing...at least for a little while. Mind you, any third Streamsong course would get heavily marketed.  Personally, I think the idea of a reversable course is a far more long term thrill so long as it is done well.   

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean

FWIW Daniel Wexler writes that if Lido existed today it would be regarded as "one of America's absolute best." He contends nearly every hole could be considered first class. In the late 1920s, after every course (save one or two) that could be considered the greatest in America had been built, a number of cognoscenti considered it...America's greatest course.

The question of course would be, does that greatness port from its original site to what amounts to a former dump, landlocked at that. Something would be lost but still: there would be wind -- excuse me, WIND. Forget the label, I bet many would consider it fantastic. (Raters would rank it too low because as a Florida resort course it lacks Belt-Notcher Chic, like Seminole for example.)

[Mark Fedeli]

Okay, so the big challenge is layed out.  I ask again, does it matter if it is a Lido?  I seriously doubt it will matter a tosh to the bottom line, but any marketing is god marketing...at least for a little while. Mind you, any third Streamsong course would get heavily marketed.  Personally, I think the idea of a reversable course is a far more long term thrill so long as it is done well.   

Ciao

As far as Lido, I think it matters slightly. It's hard to put an easy and dramatic story behind Old Macdonald that the average golfer will relate to or even want to relate to. Golfers are very aware of the fact that architects exist and most don't really care about the details. But if you sell them the story of the greatest course that ever was, this lost city of Atlantis type thing, they will inherently be intrigued. And at the very least, if it's the first course at Streamsong without a basic color name, it will automatically arouse more curiosity.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I just really disagree, Mark. This is not Old Macdonald, which was an original course a la The National and not a basic copycat course. (I wish more people got this point, that it is every bit a Tom Doak et al design, and not simply 18 carbon copies. It is in the tradition of NGLA and ANGC.) In contrast we are talking about presumably as close a copy as possible.

Therefore the question is less about the need to educate / brainwash golfers about the course's quality, it's actually about the course's quality. Either the original was a great course or it wasn't, and either that design will port or it won't. Nobody will care that it's the Lido, nor should they. Either it will be great or not.

[Mark Fedeli]

I just really disagree, Mark. This is not Old Macdonald, which was an original course a la The National and not a basic copycat course. (I wish more people got this point, that it is every bit a Tom Doak et al design, and not simply 18 carbon copies. It is in the tradition of NGLA and ANGC.) In contrast we are talking about presumably as close a copy as possible.

Therefore the question is less about the need to educate / brainwash golfers about the course's quality, it's actually about the course's quality. Either the original was a great course or it wasn't, and either that design will port or it won't. Nobody will care that it's the Lido, nor should they. Either it will be great or not.

Personally, I agree completely. But if we're talking purely from a marketing standpoint about attracting the average golfer for his first visit, I think the very strengths and weaknesses you mentioned are reversed. It's harder to explain to someone otherwise not interested in architecture why Old Macdonald is something they should go out of their way for. It would be much easier to explain to them why the Lido would be.

For what it's worth, I didn't start the Old Mac comparisons in this thread, I'm just adding my two cents on them.

[Jason Thurman]

I just really disagree, Mark. This is not Old Macdonald, which was an original course a la The National and not a basic copycat course. (I wish more people got this point, that it is every bit a Tom Doak et al design, and not simply 18 carbon copies. It is in the tradition of NGLA and ANGC.) In contrast we are talking about presumably as close a copy as possible.

Therefore the question is less about the need to educate / brainwash golfers about the course's quality, it's actually about the course's quality. Either the original was a great course or it wasn't, and either that design will port or it won't. Nobody will care that it's the Lido, nor should they. Either it will be great or not.

Exactly. If the Lido course was as great as history claims, the appeal of a reconstructed version will be immediately appreciable even to the "Nobody gives a shit who designed this course!" crowd.

[David_Tepper]

From Jerry Kluger:

"But I would think that less than 1% of golfers have any idea what the Lido course is all about and I would venture that a large percentage of those going to Bandon have no idea why one of the courses is called Old Macdonald.  We love the history of gca and OM is fun because of what it represents but that is lost on most of those who play it.  So I don't know that building a Lido course will necessarily be successful because of what it represents rather it will be judged on how it compares with the other courses at Streamsong."

Agree totally.

[Jud_T]

Pat,

Seems like it's already the best winter resort option that doesn't involve a passport, particularly for anyone east of the Mississippi.  Top new courses will serve to consolidate their gains.  While the Lido will cause much heart palpitation here and will get a bit of nice extra pub, I hardly think it's a game changer for John Q. Public.  Of course those winter rates at Bandon are pretty tempting for the hard core golfer.

[John Kavanaugh]

For people with Streamsong money it's hard not to be jacked about Cuba.  Tribute courses get filed in the same folder as tribute bands.  I don't get the appeal for any demographic including this one.

[Sean_A]

Sean

FWIW Daniel Wexler writes that if Lido existed today it would be regarded as "one of America's absolute best." He contends nearly every hole could be considered first class. In the late 1920s, after every course (save one or two) that could be considered the greatest in America had been built, a number of cognoscenti considered it...America's greatest course.

The question of course would be, does that greatness port from its original site to what amounts to a former dump, landlocked at that. Something would be lost but still: there would be wind -- excuse me, WIND. Forget the label, I bet many would consider it fantastic. (Raters would rank it too low because as a Florida resort course it lacks Belt-Notcher Chic, like Seminole for example.)

Yea yea, who knows, maybe an even better course is sitting there without a Lido stamp.  Very few people will know the real score.  I think any great course gets the job done.  Lidoizing it is just some sugar in top for geeks.  Most people won't give a rat's ass.  Build a reverse course that is as good either way?  Everybody would care about that. 

Ciao 

[John Kavanaugh]

Hollywood seems stuck on movie remakes.  I thought it was because they didn't have any new ideas that could get funded.  God only help us if golf starts going down that path.  I think it is all a soft con trying to get creativity away from the artists into the bankers hands.  Hell, anyone could put Lido in the ground, a historian, an author, a critic, a super all with the help of an upcoming cheap associate.  Sounds familiar.

[Greg Tallman]

Sean

FWIW Daniel Wexler writes that if Lido existed today it would be regarded as "one of America's absolute best." He contends nearly every hole could be considered first class. In the late 1920s, after every course (save one or two) that could be considered the greatest in America had been built, a number of cognoscenti considered it...America's greatest course.

The question of course would be, does that greatness port from its original site to what amounts to a former dump, landlocked at that. Something would be lost but still: there would be wind -- excuse me, WIND. Forget the label, I bet many would consider it fantastic. (Raters would rank it too low because as a Florida resort course it lacks Belt-Notcher Chic, like Seminole for example.)

Yea yea, who knows, maybe an even better course is sitting there without a Lido stamp.  Very few people will know the real score.  I think any great course gets the job done.  Lidoizing it is just some sugar in top for geeks.  Most people won't give a rat's ass.  Build a reverse course that is as good either way?  Everybody would care about that. 

Ciao 

Building Lido at Streamsong is similar to Old Mac in a couple regards:

1. Does not matter unless the result is a course that can stand of its own accord in todays' marketplace
2. Heaps of free advertising via articles, TV snippets... etc. dedicated to something different in today's story starved market

The origins of the concept may be pure and historically influenced but #2 is what makes it happen.

[Peter Pallotta]

Oh, for goodness sakes:

Just invite Mr Nicklaus to come in, have him build you a championship test stretching out to 7600 yards, hold a big-name tournament there in the dead of winter (The Streamsong Open, brought to you by Mosaic), and your damn hotel will be so full that you'll have to build 3 more! 


 

[Michael Blake]

They want to bring people in then build a TOUR 18 replica course. 

[William_G]

I hate to bring it up, but Pebble Beach is packed.
Tee times run from 6:30am till the afternoon, seven days a week.
The rooms are nice and the food is excellent.
Yes, it's very expensive, but, golfers are traveling great distances, staying at the hotels and enjoying good food.

It's tough to replicate the setting as it's one of the most magnificent settings in the world, golf or no golf.

and you'll see it again on TV in 2 weeks, fun stuff...used to be called something like the Crosby Clambake

[Carson Pilcher]

Pat:

I meant the golfer's budget, not the resort's.

Sven,

I gave that some thought.

Steve Lapper and I had an extended conversation about that last night.

As a "destination" resort, and a remote one at that, you would think that you'd want to cater to the customer who can afford your product and everything related to it, such as travel and accomodations.

I don't think Streamsong's "ideal" customer is a local who drives an hour or two, plays 18 and goes home.

One would think that they want golfers, especially "snow birds" to fly down and spend two or three nights at the hotel, playing 3 to five rounds.

High occupancy remains a critical goal.
You don't build a beautiful 218 room hotel and accept occupancy rates below 33 %
Higher occupancy also means better service and better food.

One would think that the Kemper Organization, with their prior experience at Bandon, would get it right, but, I'm not so sure.

The rooms at Bandon were great, but, the food suffered significantly since my last visit.
And I believe that has something to do with their customer.

I hate to bring it up, but Pebble Beach is packed.
Tee times run from 6:30am till the afternoon, seven days a week.
The rooms are nice and the food is excellent.
Yes, it's very expensive, but, golfers are traveling great distances, staying at the hotels and enjoying good food.

It's tough to replicate the setting as it's one of the most magnificent settings in the world, golf or no golf.

And, Streamsong can't replicate that.

But, by crafting really superior courses, they'll attract their share of the market, most of whom reside within the same time zone, which is a real asset in terms of travel.

Patrick-
Kemper Sports only manages the golfing operations while a separate company (Interstate Hotels i think?) manages the hotel.  

Yes, but the net revenue from both goes to Mosaic.

I dont think anyone is arguing otherwise.  I was just letting you know that Streamsongs Managment is split up between two companies.  Kemper Sports manages the golfing operations, while Interstate Hotels manages the Lodging and food operations.  The intention was just to let you know that any lodging or food related criticisms directed towards Kemper Sports are unwarranted simply because thats not one of the operations under their domain.

K Rafkin is right. Kemper manages the golf operations and the marketing of the resort. Interstate handles the lodging, food/beverage, spa,
recreation (non-golf) activities and sales/reservations. The average customer doesn't know the difference of who manages what. To them, everyone works for "Streamsong."

Be that as it may, there's a sharp difference in the quality of customer service delivered between the two organizations based on my experience booking two large GCA groups (16 and 22 people). I only wish that I could always work directly with Scott Wilson's team at Kemper in booking a group. The alternative pushed me to forgo planning another such trip.

Howard,

I could not agree more.  We took a large group down, and Scott's team was fantastic in helping us arrange it.  The hotel and food missed the mark by a longshot.  Not only on the planning, but the overall synergies between golf and "other".  The first morning, breakfast took an hour.  For me, I just want a quick breakfast so I can get to the range and make my tee time.  We had to rush - not counting the time you had to waste waiting for your car to come up from valet.  Is there still no shuttle between the lodge and the course?

Back to the courses...a reverse TOC would have me there in a heartbeat!!!

[Jerry Kluger]

I was just looking at the Lido section of George Bahto's book and I really wonder if a Lido project would work.  It was built along the water and it required large of amounts of topsoil to be brought in so it would be above sea level and not be constantly in danger of being flooded.  I would suggest that it reminds me of the Ocean Course at Kiawah.  I would ask the question of whether the Ocean Course would be as special if it was built inland - to which my answer would be: no. Sure, there are some really good holes that could be built based upon Lido but without the water I don't think it would work as being a tribute to Lido.  What I would envision would be a Florida version of Old Macdonald which is certainly not a bad thing but not a 21st century Lido.

[Benjamin Litman]

Carson, there is definitely a shuttle (or two or three) that runs between the lodge and the clubhouse on a regular basis. It was one of my favorite perks of being there. But I agree with you wholeheartedly on breakfast. Two things are wrong with P205 as a breakfast venue: (1) the outdoors is completely blocked from view in the restaurant, and (2) there is no buffet. I wasn't a big fan of Fifty-Nine (the restaurant at the clubhouse) either. Thankfully, SottoTerra finally opened our last night, and it was amazing.

[Carson Pilcher]

Carson, there is definitely a shuttle (or two or three) that runs between the lodge and the clubhouse on a regular basis. It was one of my favorite perks of being there. But I agree with you wholeheartedly on breakfast. Two things are wrong with P205 as a breakfast venue: (1) the outdoors is completely blocked from view in the restaurant, and (2) there is no buffet. I wasn't a big fan of Fifty-Nine (the restaurant at the clubhouse) either. Thankfully, SottoTerra finally opened our last night, and it was amazing.

That is great to hear.  I must have been one of the early guests in the hotel because they definitely did not have it figured out.  No shuttle, and valet sometimes took 20 minutes to get your car.  Pretty frustrating after an hour breakfast to then have to worry about making your tee time at all; much less time to warm up.

[Garland Bayley]

I think it will draw a lot of interest, Pat. Wonder if a St. Andrews Old Course clone woud be in the mix for future courses beyond the Black and Lido courses?

Seems TOC is not truly clonable in Florida. FESCUE!

[Steve Lapper]

I was just looking at the Lido section of George Bahto's book and I really wonder if a Lido project would work.  It was built along the water and it required large of amounts of topsoil to be brought in so it would be above sea level and not be constantly in danger of being flooded.  I would suggest that it reminds me of the Ocean Course at Kiawah.  I would ask the question of whether the Ocean Course would be as special if it was built inland - to which my answer would be: no. Sure, there are some really good holes that could be built based upon Lido but without the water I don't think it would work as being a tribute to Lido.  What I would envision would be a Florida version of Old Macdonald which is certainly not a bad thing but not a 21st century Lido.

Jerry,

   The original Lido sat in a very low-lying area on the southern shore of L.I. that was always prone to tidal flooding. Remember this was before the Army Corps of Engineers and other various authorities did any of the berming, barrier, and dredging projects to any of the surrounding areas. Constant flooding from Nor'easters wrecked havoc along that Long Beach coastal area for years. To a lesser degree, it still does.

 Obviously, Streamsong wouldn't have the problem and unquestionably any course built to recreate Lido would need to avoid a potential flood zone found on the original. There is certainly enough water  around or within the Mosaic property to potentially satisfy a worthy mimic of the original. Replicas aren't originals and the folks whose dream it is to recreate it know that. Regardless, any attempt by those folks would be awesome and an addition to the resort and the game. Heck...I don't care if it gets done at Streamsong or Sand Valley, I'd travel to play it.

[Bill_McBride]

I think it will draw a lot of interest, Pat. Wonder if a St. Andrews Old Course clone woud be in the mix for future courses beyond the Black and Lido courses?

Seems TOC is not truly clonable in Florida. FESCUE!

Not clonable but there is a pretty good emulation by Jack Nicklaus at Grand Cypress near Disneyworld in Orlando, the "New Course."   Definitely in Florida, definitely not terrible.