Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.

[Patrick_Mucci]

From Matty G. last year:

"if the new Lido course ever gets built, Doak would be the obvious choice. He has extensive knowledge of Macdonald's template holes and along with former partner Jim Urbina, built Old Macdonald at Bandon Dunes, which was an homage to "the father of American golf architecture."

Question-  If the course is in fact going to be a fairly exact replica and not a reinterpretation a la Old Mac, 1) How do you sell a big name GCA on taking this project on and 2) how is it then attributed?

judT

The answer to your questions are

1).    It's called MONEY

2).    The same way Old Macdonald was attributed

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
I'm not sure about the destination golfer.  I think there are two types.  There is "he Pebble Beach" type and the "Cypress Point" type.  And I don't know where Streamsong fits.  Now none of that assumption has to do with the quality of the golf at Streamsong.  The "Pebble Beach" guy will play TPC Sawgrass, PGA National and maybe another Florida TPC course for a golf trip.  He has no idea what Lido is.  The "Cypress Point" guy will do Indian Creek, Seminole, Mountain Lake and maybe Timaquana.  I'm just not sure of the market but obviously people that know much more than myself have that figured...

Mike,

I don't think the lines of demarcation are that clear.

The golfer that plays CPC, Indian Creek, Seminole, Mountain Lake and Timiquana will also travel to play Kohler, Bandon and Streamsong, quality destination/resort golf courses.

The same is true for the PBGC, TPC and PGA golfer.   He'll travel to the newest sensation and Kohler, Bandon and Streamsong were/are the newest sensation.

All three of those resorts had an advantage.
Once they had a course or two of note in play, there was a heightened interest in their next course.

Bandon became a "Target" destination immediately after Bandon Dunes opened.
It took a quantum leap with the addition of Pacific Dunes.
It took additional leaps with Bandon Trails and Old Macdonald.

Streamsong benefited from a spectacular opening quinella.
Streamsong will take another leap with the addition of another terrific golf course.

As to the naysayers, morons all, Lido has enjoyed the loftiest of architectural reputations for decades upon decades.

Now, suddenly, the naysayers are claiming that Lido was a myth, overrated and mediocre at best.

I can't think of a CBM/SR course that's not well regarded, so why would replicating what was once deemed one of the greatest CBM/SR courses be poorly received ?

Those not interested in architecture might not have known who C.B. Macdonald was before they played Old Macdonald, but i'dventure to say that they knew about him when they made their reservations and/or after they played the course.

Why would it be different with Streamsong and Lido ?

Streamsong will only get better

They get it.
Richard Mack gets it.
Scott Wilson gets it.

And if they decide to replicate Lido, the commissioned architect will get it.

I've never been disappointed with any CBM/SR course I've played and I can't imagine being disappointed by playing a replica of Lido.

As to the ocean, there was only one hole one the ocean, a long par 3.

In addition, Lido Boulevard, a major thoroughfare ran right through the golf course.

I have every confidence that a skilled architect could replicate Lido at Streamsong

[John Connolly]

John Connolly,

Obviously you've never played the "Short" course at Pine Valley.

Today, replication isn't a difficult feat if you have the land, money, permits along with a competent architect

No I haven't played "Short". I understand there are 10-12 replica holes - but they're on site. The same site. I guess that's my principle point. Streamsong Lido would be quite disparate geographically (and agronomically) and replicating the original would be pretty challenging. But that doesn't mean I think it's a bad idea - my hope is that it would be built in such a way that it's a great course on its own merits. And, as a bonus, it's a replica of an American classic. Pretty cool. If we're inclined to select Pebble or TOC on Golden Tee or a Golf Simulator, clearly we'd be intrigued enough to make the trek. If they spent a gazillion dollars to build Pine Valley or ANGC in Omaha, hell I'd show up.   

[Jim Nugent]

As to the naysayers, morons all, Lido has enjoyed the loftiest of architectural reputations for decades upon decades.

Now, suddenly, the naysayers are claiming that Lido was a myth, overrated and mediocre at best. 

The 'naysayers' include Tom Doak and George Bahto.  They aren't saying Lido was mediocre.  But they raise the question if it was as good as is claimed.  As for 'suddenly,' this goes back to 2008.

I can't think of a CBM/SR course that's not well regarded, so why would replicating what was once deemed one of the greatest CBM/SR courses be poorly received ? 

A real good point, whether or not Lido was a top 3 course.  Especially since to my knowledge, few if any top CBM/SR courses are public.  Could be a real eye-opener, even more than Old Mac, where Tom interpreted/used CBM's principles, but made no attempt to duplicate his holes.   

If they can truly duplicate the course, they might even improve on the original, at least in one way.  CBM was disappointed with the finished product: the builders didn't put in all the folds he wanted.  A top architectural team might remedy that. 

Question: how does the wind at Streamsong compare to the wind at the original Lido site? 

[/quote]

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Connolly,

Obviously you've never played the "Short" course at Pine Valley.

Today, replication isn't a difficult feat if you have the land, money, permits along with a competent architect

No I haven't played "Short". I understand there are 10-12 replica holes - but they're on site. The same site. I guess that's my principle point.

By "on site" do you mean the same postal address ?

Have you played the 18 hole course at Pine Valley with it's unique terrain ?

The introduction of the replica short course is or should be one of the wonders of the golfing world.
It's really quite special.
Fazio and Ransome combined to produce an incredible replica course.

If you've played the "big" course and observed the unique topography you'd realize what a unique challenge they faced, yet, I they were successful beyond one's imagination.

Lido was on a dead flat piece of property, something that should be easily duplicated at Streamsong


Streamsong Lido would be quite disparate geographically (and agronomically) and replicating the original would be pretty challenging.

No more so than NGLA and Old Macdonald.
And the topography is similar as is the sandy soil

But that doesn't mean I think it's a bad idea - my hope is that it would be built in such a way that it's a great course on its own merits.

I think the folks at Streamsong understand the need to build any course as a quality course, irrespective of whether it's an original or replica.


And, as a bonus, it's a replica of an American classic. Pretty cool. If we're inclined to select Pebble or TOC on Golden Tee or a Golf Simulator, clearly we'd be intrigued enough to make the trek.

If they spent a gazillion dollars to build Pine Valley or ANGC in Omaha, hell I'd show up.   

I believe the problem with prior replica courses was the combination of insufficient funds and forcing non-exact/near replica holes.

[Steve Lapper]

Jim Nugent asked about the wind similarity btw the original site for Lido and Streamsong.

While I don't have any historical or quantitative data to back this up, I believe, anecdotally (years of golf and windsurfing nearby), that the breezes that sweep the South shore of LI are mostly moderate during the golf season, absent any significant Atlantic storms or Nor'easters, usually prevalent in the Spring and Fall. Summer winds there aren't even "trade-strength" for the most part, instead rising to 10-15mph in the later afternoons for the most part.

Florida denizens can better opine, but in my multiple visits (ranging only from Dec-March) to Streamsong, I've noticed decent winds, especially in the pm hours. I don't know if that's seasonal, but I'd imagine any terrain on essentially a wide peninsula between two large bodies of water would favor some sort of consistent breezes.

I'd add that Streamsong, with it's abundance of potential for artificial elevations and natural or otherwise lakes and ponds, would be an absolutely ideal site for a Lido recreation. Much more so than a Sand Valley glacial moraine.

Cheers!