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Patrick_Mucci

Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« on: January 27, 2015, 07:31:44 PM »
If Gil Hanse designs a course that's comparable with the Red and the Blue, and Streamsong then decides to replicate the original design at Lido, would Streamsong become "the" destination resort in the U.S. in the months of October thru May ?

Would a Lido replicate at Streamsong serve as the same kind of catalyst that Old Macdonald served at Bandon ?

On a personal note, I loved Old Macdonald and Old Macdonald has heightened my interest in returning to Bandon.

Would a Lido replicate serve as a similar lure ?

Eric Smith

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Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2015, 07:42:57 PM »
I think it will draw a lot of interest, Pat. Wonder if a St. Andrews Old Course clone woud be in the mix for future courses beyond the Black and Lido courses?

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2015, 07:44:50 PM »
If Gil Hanse designs a course that's comparable with the Red and the Blue, and Streamsong then decides to replicate the original design at Lido, would Streamsong become "the" destination resort in the U.S. in the months of October thru May ?

Would a Lido replicate at Streamsong serve as the same kind of catalyst that Old Macdonald served at Bandon ?

On a personal note, I loved Old Macdonald and Old Macdonald has heightened my interest in returning to Bandon.

Would a Lido replicate serve as a similar lure ?

Depends on your budget.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2015, 07:46:38 PM »

I think it will draw a lot of interest, Pat. Wonder if a St. Andrews Old Course clone woud be in the mix for future courses beyond the Black and Lido courses?

Eric,

If it was me, and nobody has asked me, yes, I'd replicate TOC and have it play in both directions.

Six courses for the cost of five  ;D

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2015, 07:48:37 PM »
If Gil Hanse designs a course that's comparable with the Red and the Blue, and Streamsong then decides to replicate the original design at Lido, would Streamsong become "the" destination resort in the U.S. in the months of October thru May ?

Would a Lido replicate at Streamsong serve as the same kind of catalyst that Old Macdonald served at Bandon ?

On a personal note, I loved Old Macdonald and Old Macdonald has heightened my interest in returning to Bandon.

Would a Lido replicate serve as a similar lure ?

Depends on your budget.

Sven,

I don't think so in this case.

They already own all of the land, having paid for it ages ago.

The sandy soil available makes moving it rather inexpensive as do some existing lakes/ponds



Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2015, 07:49:35 PM »
Pat:

I meant the golfer's budget, not the resort's.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2015, 07:49:58 PM »
After Lido I want the ultimate version of Biarritz. Full original chasm hole and chambre d'amour. Put some of Streamsong's deep mining pits to good use.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Bill_McBride

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Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2015, 07:53:34 PM »
After Lido I want the ultimate version of Biarritz. Full original chasm hole and chambre d'amour. Put some of Streamsong's deep mining pits to good use.

Have you played Red 16?   There it is, chasm and all!

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2015, 08:12:44 PM »
After Lido I want the ultimate version of Biarritz. Full original chasm hole and chambre d'amour. Put some of Streamsong's deep mining pits to good use.

Have you played Red 16?   There it is, chasm and all!

Ha! We can't have a biarritz green on the chasm hole.  :)

Besides, I won't be happy until i'm hitting straight up a 60 foot cliff.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2015, 08:16:21 PM »
Pat:

I meant the golfer's budget, not the resort's.

Sven,

I gave that some thought.

Steve Lapper and I had an extended conversation about that last night.

As a "destination" resort, and a remote one at that, you would think that you'd want to cater to the customer who can afford your product and everything related to it, such as travel and accomodations.

I don't think Streamsong's "ideal" customer is a local who drives an hour or two, plays 18 and goes home.

One would think that they want golfers, especially "snow birds" to fly down and spend two or three nights at the hotel, playing 3 to five rounds.

High occupancy remains a critical goal.
You don't build a beautiful 218 room hotel and accept occupancy rates below 33 %
Higher occupancy also means better service and better food.

One would think that the Kemper Organization, with their prior experience at Bandon, would get it right, but, I'm not so sure.

The rooms at Bandon were great, but, the food suffered significantly since my last visit.
And I believe that has something to do with their customer.

I hate to bring it up, but Pebble Beach is packed.
Tee times run from 6:30am till the afternoon, seven days a week.
The rooms are nice and the food is excellent.
Yes, it's very expensive, but, golfers are traveling great distances, staying at the hotels and enjoying good food.

It's tough to replicate the setting as it's one of the most magnificent settings in the world, golf or no golf.

And, Streamsong can't replicate that.

But, by crafting really superior courses, they'll attract their share of the market, most of whom reside within the same time zone, which is a real asset in terms of travel.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2015, 08:18:10 PM »
After Lido I want the ultimate version of Biarritz. Full original chasm hole and chambre d'amour. Put some of Streamsong's deep mining pits to good use.

Have you played Red 16?   There it is, chasm and all!

Ha! We can't have a biarritz green on the chasm hole.  :)

Besides, I won't be happy until i'm hitting straight up a 60 foot cliff.

Mark,

The 7th hole Blue, in reverse would satisfy your request, as would many other locations at Streamsong.

I think the potential there is almost unlimited.


K Rafkin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2015, 08:42:15 PM »
Patrick-
Kemper Sports only manages the golfing operations while a separate company (Interstate Hotels i think?) manages the hotel. 

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2015, 08:44:25 PM »
It can't miss, Pat. At least for the Eastern US population, not to mention potential golfers from Europe.

I trust that Gil will build an excellent course with very compelling holes. Add in Lido's 18 and it will be a must play, repeat destination,  for the upscale golfing population. I think far fewer people are willing to pay the huge initiation fees to join clubs in Florida. so they'll be willing to pay the somewhat higher daily fees in order to play top notch golf courses.

Personally, I'm thrilled at the prospects of continued appreciation for great golf course architecture, especially a rekindling of Macdonald's classic holes.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2015, 08:49:54 PM »
Yes.

You and I have sparred a bit on the merits of Streamsong as a return destination for the average golfer due to its costs and limited golfing opportunities. If what you suggests becomes a reality, I think that would be a game-changer for Streamsong.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2015, 08:56:16 PM »
Pat:

Ray B says next time order the Shrimp and Grits.  You can't go wrong.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2015, 09:03:23 PM »
Patrick-
Kemper Sports only manages the golfing operations while a separate company (Interstate Hotels i think?) manages the hotel. 

Yes, but the net revenue from both goes to Mosaic.


Daniel Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2015, 09:08:52 PM »
I'm that "local that drives an hour or two, plays 18 and heads home," and while I love Streamsong in its current form, I also want the resort to succeed. I think a 3rd, 4th or 5th course will ensure that, as the target customer..those that come and spend 5-7 days..will now have a reason to do so.

All that said...a reversible course, be it the Old Course or anything else, would be absolutely awesome. Red, Blue, Black, Lido, Reverse. Sign me up for that!

And yes...the shrimp and grits is worth the drive from anywhere.

BCowan

Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2015, 09:34:23 PM »
Daniel,

   Would you say the locals make the trip in the off season to play the course at reduced rates May-Sept?  Nov and Dec the rates are very fair.  I haven't played the courses but have been meaning to in Dec.  $135-150 is a great price point for quality.  

''I think far fewer people are willing to pay the huge initiation fees to join clubs in Florida''- I agree completely.  You mean there are people that go to Florida just to play golf and don't swim in the pool?  ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 09:49:48 PM by BCowan »

K Rafkin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2015, 09:54:13 PM »
Pat:

I meant the golfer's budget, not the resort's.

Sven,

I gave that some thought.

Steve Lapper and I had an extended conversation about that last night.

As a "destination" resort, and a remote one at that, you would think that you'd want to cater to the customer who can afford your product and everything related to it, such as travel and accomodations.

I don't think Streamsong's "ideal" customer is a local who drives an hour or two, plays 18 and goes home.

One would think that they want golfers, especially "snow birds" to fly down and spend two or three nights at the hotel, playing 3 to five rounds.

High occupancy remains a critical goal.
You don't build a beautiful 218 room hotel and accept occupancy rates below 33 %
Higher occupancy also means better service and better food.

One would think that the Kemper Organization, with their prior experience at Bandon, would get it right, but, I'm not so sure.

The rooms at Bandon were great, but, the food suffered significantly since my last visit.
And I believe that has something to do with their customer.

I hate to bring it up, but Pebble Beach is packed.
Tee times run from 6:30am till the afternoon, seven days a week.
The rooms are nice and the food is excellent.
Yes, it's very expensive, but, golfers are traveling great distances, staying at the hotels and enjoying good food.

It's tough to replicate the setting as it's one of the most magnificent settings in the world, golf or no golf.

And, Streamsong can't replicate that.

But, by crafting really superior courses, they'll attract their share of the market, most of whom reside within the same time zone, which is a real asset in terms of travel.

Patrick-
Kemper Sports only manages the golfing operations while a separate company (Interstate Hotels i think?) manages the hotel. 

Yes, but the net revenue from both goes to Mosaic.


I dont think anyone is arguing otherwise.  I was just letting you know that Streamsongs Managment is split up between two companies.  Kemper Sports manages the golfing operations, while Interstate Hotels manages the Lodging and food operations.  The intention was just to let you know that any lodging or food related criticisms directed towards Kemper Sports are unwarranted simply because thats not one of the operations under their domain.

Daniel Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2015, 10:00:39 PM »
Daniel,

   Would you say the locals make the trip in the off season to play the course at reduced rates May-Sept?  Nov and Dec the rates are very fair.  I haven't played the courses but have been meaning to in Dec.  $135-150 is a great price point for quality.  

''I think far fewer people are willing to pay the huge initiation fees to join clubs in Florida''- I agree completely.  You mean there are people that go to Florida just to play golf and don't swim in the pool?  ;D ;D ;D

I think there are certainly some that will wait until summer in order to capture the savings, but I'm just as happy paying $75 as I am $150 because it's worth every penny. What will probably attract me more this summer is lower rates at the lodge where for $300 I can pop down as a solo for a night and play both courses, minus the 2 hour drive home after baking in the sun all day.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2015, 10:22:56 PM »
I'm out of my league here, on several fronts; but I can imagine a 'private' course on the horizon, ie only guests staying at the resort will be able to play it. And that designation will determine much, I think, eg who the designer is, what type of course it will be etc. A resort does need at least one 'resort course', doesn't it?
Peter

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2015, 10:32:06 PM »
Pat:

I meant the golfer's budget, not the resort's.

Sven,

I gave that some thought.

Steve Lapper and I had an extended conversation about that last night.

As a "destination" resort, and a remote one at that, you would think that you'd want to cater to the customer who can afford your product and everything related to it, such as travel and accomodations.

I don't think Streamsong's "ideal" customer is a local who drives an hour or two, plays 18 and goes home.

One would think that they want golfers, especially "snow birds" to fly down and spend two or three nights at the hotel, playing 3 to five rounds.

High occupancy remains a critical goal.
You don't build a beautiful 218 room hotel and accept occupancy rates below 33 %
Higher occupancy also means better service and better food.

One would think that the Kemper Organization, with their prior experience at Bandon, would get it right, but, I'm not so sure.

The rooms at Bandon were great, but, the food suffered significantly since my last visit.
And I believe that has something to do with their customer.

I hate to bring it up, but Pebble Beach is packed.
Tee times run from 6:30am till the afternoon, seven days a week.
The rooms are nice and the food is excellent.
Yes, it's very expensive, but, golfers are traveling great distances, staying at the hotels and enjoying good food.

It's tough to replicate the setting as it's one of the most magnificent settings in the world, golf or no golf.

And, Streamsong can't replicate that.

But, by crafting really superior courses, they'll attract their share of the market, most of whom reside within the same time zone, which is a real asset in terms of travel.

Patrick-
Kemper Sports only manages the golfing operations while a separate company (Interstate Hotels i think?) manages the hotel.  

Yes, but the net revenue from both goes to Mosaic.


I dont think anyone is arguing otherwise.  I was just letting you know that Streamsongs Managment is split up between two companies.  Kemper Sports manages the golfing operations, while Interstate Hotels manages the Lodging and food operations.  The intention was just to let you know that any lodging or food related criticisms directed towards Kemper Sports are unwarranted simply because thats not one of the operations under their domain.

K Rafkin is right. Kemper manages the golf operations and the marketing of the resort. Interstate handles the lodging, food/beverage, spa,
recreation (non-golf) activities and sales/reservations. The average customer doesn't know the difference of who manages what. To them, everyone works for "Streamsong."

Be that as it may, there's a sharp difference in the quality of customer service delivered between the two organizations based on my experience booking two large GCA groups (16 and 22 people). I only wish that I could always work directly with Scott Wilson's team at Kemper in booking a group. The alternative pushed me to forgo planning another such trip.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 10:34:39 PM by Howard Riefs »
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2015, 10:33:24 PM »

I think it will draw a lot of interest, Pat. Wonder if a St. Andrews Old Course clone woud be in the mix for future courses beyond the Black and Lido courses?

Eric,

If it was me, and nobody has asked me, yes, I'd replicate TOC and have it play in both directions.

Six courses for the cost of five  ;D

That would be a fantastic idea. I really mean that. Fantastic.

How many courses could realistically be built at Streamsong, assuming the demand is there?

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2015, 10:39:07 PM »
Pat: I can understand how a Gil Hanse course will attract more players to Streamsong from the publicity he has received for his being chosen to design the course for the Olympics, although it is far from complete and therefor has not been evaluated.  He has also gotten quite a bit of notoriety for his work at Doral. And yes, I realize that he has done some other really high quality work and so he should have a following.

But I would think that less than 1% of golfers have any idea what the Lido course is all about and I would venture that a large percentage of those going to Bandon have no idea why one of the courses is called Old Macdonald.  We love the history of gca and OM is fun because of what it represents but that is lost on most of those who play it.  So I don't know that building a Lido course will necessarily be successful because of what it represents rather it will be judged on how it compares with the other courses at Streamsong.

K Rafkin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong: Let's make an assumption.
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2015, 12:19:49 AM »
PPallotta- While a private course (or at least private to guests of the resort), would only make sense if there were enough locals around to steal away the tee times from the resort guests.  Financially speaking, resort guests are spending more money on the property, thus they are more important for Streamsongs success.  If resort guests cannot get tee times then they are unlikely to return or even come in the first place.  Given Streamsong's remote location this isnt yet an issue, and likely wont become one in the future (as long as new courses are being built).  If Streamsong continues to grow I can see them offering preferred tee times to resort guests exclusively, or only allowing non resort guests to book a short time in advance, but having a resort only course doesn't look to be in the future. 

Howard Riefs- I agree.  Not only is there a dip off in service from one management group to the other, there is a lack of continuity between them as well.  The two management companies are not amply designed to work side by side, which, in my opinion, is where many compilations about the service originate (two cooks in the kitchen).  Also due to the fluctuating rates of the Hotel I found it significantly cheaper to book my golf and lodge a la carte instead of purchasing a package, which absolutely should not be possible.

Brian Hoover-That’s a fun question!  Although I’m not sure if anyone can answer completely accurately id like to give it a go.  Streamsong is 15,000 acres, which is roughly 10x the size of Bandon.  The current two courses occupy somewhere between 600-800 acres.  The Black course is to sit on top of 250+- acres.  Add in another 200-400 acres for the hypothetical, yet inevitable lido course.  Lets go ahead and assume that the Lodge, 2 current courses, and 2 future courses take up an astonishing 5000 acres (which they don’t), which also accounts for some unusable land along the property.  Now we are left with 10,000 acres.  We want our courses to be spread out so lets go ahead and set aside 500 acres for each course which leaves us with 20 more courses that can be built.  That being said the real answer is infinity more courses Stream song isn’t located in downtown San Francisco, its located in rural central Florida.  If land were to every become an issue (which it wont) Mosiac could just purchase additional property assuming they don't already own it (which they probably do).

Jerry Kluger-The novelty of a course like Old Mac or Lido isn’t in its history but in its uniqueness.  Although its neat to talk about with guests while playing, 99% of people who like Old Mac don't care who it is designed by and how it fits into history, they like Old Mac because its different.  I would argue that Old Mac is the most unique course in the United States.  The uniqueness of Old Mac combined with vastly different BD/PD, and tree lined forest of BT provide the variety that has contributed to Bandon's success.  The reason why golfers travel outside of their respective regions is to seek something new.  Streamsong has the ability to add something completely different, but have it 1000 feet away, instead of 1000 miles.  The real goal of the Lido course (aside from getting some sort of official partnership for marketing purposes out of Keiser), would to be provide something vastly different then what’s already on the property.