[V. Kmetz]

Hi,

I can't locate my long-ago thread on the roster of Templates known in the original CBM-Raynor-Banks universe, but let me list what I know and then those who are willing, please add to my list.

I've listed a hole or notation that is paradigm for the style after some of them, but you don't have to do that, and you're welcome to correct me...these are in no particular order...

1. Biarritz - fishers 5, Yale 9 (also come in non-chasm types with no carry...all usually 200-225 yds)
2. Eden - 11 TOC
3. Redan - 15 NB, 4 NGLA, 7 Shinny
4. Reverse Redan - maybe not worthy of stipulation, but they appear on some good courses (like #7 Sleepy Hollow)
5. Short - many types, most often 125-150 target, large multi-sectored green with pimples, encircled by sand almost entirely in many versions
6. Alps - 17 at prestwick is the model, but I think 3 NGLA when I see the word
7. Road
8. Drive and Pitch - many types...maybe St. Andrews 7 is a model (??)...I think of #7 CC of Fairfield and #10 Merion as prototypical (is #1 NGLA intended as this iteration?)
9. Knoll - 14 at Yale, but I think there are ones that are more straightaway, (but all are usually marked by an absence of bunkers, raised volcanic green pad)
10. Hogsback - 5 at NGLA, 6 at Fishers
11. Double Plateau - 17 Yale, 11 NGLA
12. Cape - 14 at NGLA other versions with bunker/waste as the angle carry hazard instead of water, though water "feels" right for the name
13. Leven - 17 at NGLA.
14. Raynor's Prize DogLeg - I think of 18 at Knollwood as the most evident copy (god that is the toughest closing hole I know)
15. Punchbowl - don't know original, seen many types, but 16 at NGLA and 4 fishers are the models in my mind.
16. Sahara - is this more of the hazard's appearance or a recurring hole type emulated at #2 NGLA?
17. Bottle - 15 NGLA (what is the "command" of this hole...straight driving?.....)

And I have experienced "features"... Principal's Nose, Spectacles, Valley of Sin, Dolomites, Hell Bunker, but thsoe aren't ever used as template types, are they?

and there are styles I'm not sure of, whether or not they were made out of, or fell into, being rightfully called a "Template"

Maiden, Lido, Channel,

If you have the time, please pass on your amendments. Type away as you like, but I thought of it as a rather quick and easy-to-add thread.

cheers

vk

[Patrick_Mucci]

Plateau, Valley and Long should be added.

Let me dig out George Bahto's book on The Knoll Golf Course and get back to you.

[V. Kmetz]

Hi Pat,

Most Excellent... thank you.

Is Valley the named template for #1 NGLA...?

Long was a "duh" oversight...

what would be a Plateau?...a green feature or an elevation feature?

cheers

vk

[J_ Crisham]

Some of my favorite templates are 1 at Yeamans- double plateau, just an amazing green complex, 8 at Blue Mound and 16 at Mtn Lake- delightful punchbowls. The cape at SLCC # 7? So any fine examples to mention.

[Jud_T]

The Biarritz 12th at Tamarack should be added IMO and possibly the Punchbowl 11th.  Also, whatever you call the 11th at Shoreacres, it needs to be on the list.

[V. Kmetz]

Hi,

JT...agreed...it's a "non-chasm" inland type...but a fine example of that type...

cheers

vk

[Nigel Islam]

Some of my favorite templates are 1 at Yeamans- double plateau, just an amazing green complex, 8 at Blue Mound and 16 at Mtn Lake- delightful punchbowls. The cape at SLCC # 7? So any fine examples to mention.

At SLCC the cape is actually the 8th, the 7th is a rather tough Short.

[Sven Nilsen]

Hi,

JT...agreed...it's a "non-chasm" inland type...but a fine example of that type...

cheers

vk

VK -

Go back and read CBM's description of a Biarritz in his write up of an ideal course.  There is nothing about a "chasm."  When you start including that word you are getting away from the essential features that comprised the template.

Sven

[V. Kmetz]

Sven,

I don't disagree in the least, but that leaves us (me) with the very famous instances of Yale and Fisher's, with the chasm component, but a Biarritz green complex...perhaps we can state the chasm component as a Raynor variation/supplement(?)...

For my own playing (ha - I've played like less than 80 holes in three years) tastes I prefer the non-chasm "standard,"...but for visual power, the chasm-type are just so audacious, as to steal the show.

The first glimpse of #9 Yale is equal to any top scene a golfer drinks in in their life I think...the first time you see a Cypress hole, or visit ANGC, or stand on the first tee of the TOC, or play the 8th at Pebble...the 5th green complex at Merion...the first green at WFW...there's a thosuand of them, but that view is singular and registers with most anyone...it's like "crack" for the GCA-coke addict...

cheers

vk

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

I don't disagree in the least, but that leaves us (me) with the very famous instances of Yale and Fisher's, with the chasm component, but a Biarritz green complex...perhaps we can state the chasm component as a Raynor variation/supplement(?)...

For my own playing (ha - I've played like less than 80 holes in three years) tastes I prefer the non-chasm "standard,"...but for visual power, the chasm-type are just so audacious, as to steal the show.

The first glimpse of #9 Yale is equal to any top scene a golfer drinks in in their life I think...the first time you see a Cypress hole, or visit ANGC, or stand on the first tee of the TOC, or play the 8th at Pebble...the 5th green complex at Merion...the first green at WFW...there's a thosuand of them, but that view is singular and registers with most anyone...it's like "crack" for the GCA-coke addict...

cheers

vk

VK -

Just trying to dispel the myth that the inspiration for the template had anything to do with the "Chasm Hole" at Biarritz.

Sven

[V. Kmetz]

Hi,

Sven (and all), I remember that extensive Biarritz thread from 1 - 1.5 years ago, in which all the interested voices weighed in, and pictures and incredible research was posted, postcards and drawings and paintings and so forth...

What was the ultimate "majority" (lol) opinion in the end...

A. There was a distinct "Chasm" hole identified; what did it play?
B. Was it just before or after the "Biarritz" (the shot value we know)...in a nearby section of the course?
C. Are there mimics of a Chasm Hole deployed on any CBM, Raynor, Banks course, or was copied enough by another early architects to be called a "template," at least nominally...?
D. Did CBM even "get" the idea for the 210-230 yard, narrow, ha-ha landform green, from the courses at Biarritz at all... and that's just a misnomer?
E. Did CBM fuse two holes together to form a "Biarritz" template?

That thread blew my mind, as along the way it answered several of my long-time questions and conjectures, and made me so unsure of what I had originally thought about what CBM found there.

Can Sven or anybody else straighten me out on these bullets?

Oh yes, and while Pat remains to weigh in via Bahto, have any templates been missed in this brief run-down so far?

Wasn't there a template called Himalayas or something?

Is "Skyline" (like 10 fishers) a dedicated template...it should be....?

I can't put my hand on an old card, but what are #s 6 and 7 called in the Template universe, if anything?

cheers

vk

[Bill Brightly]

And I have experienced "features"... Principal's Nose, Spectacles, Valley of Sin, Dolomites, Hell Bunker, but thsoe aren't ever used as template types, are they?

If you have the time, please pass on your amendments. Type away as you like, but I thought of it as a rather quick and easy-to-add thread.

Some of the features you list were often paired on specific templates. Principle Nose complexes were coupled with Double Plateau greens. Hell Bunkers on Long Holes.

From my experience, Plateau greens have a distinct fron lower tier, and a high back tier that is bisected into two sections. I've seen this type of green on McRaynor par 5's, while Double Plateaus are par 4's.

[Bill_McBride]

#1 at Mountain Lake is a Double Plateau with a great green.   #9 is an excellent Short with a dastardly thumbprint.   #11 is to me a somewhat dubious Redan with no kicker.   I think it's #??? that's a good Biarritz once aced by Tiger Bernhardt.  I found most of the templates to be rather understated.  

[Sven Nilsen]

A. There was a distinct "Chasm" hole identified; what did it play?
B. Was it just before or after the "Biarritz" (the shot value we know)...in a nearby section of the course?
C. Are there mimics of a Chasm Hole deployed on any CBM, Raynor, Banks course, or was copied enough by another early architects to be called a "template," at least nominally...?
D. Did CBM even "get" the idea for the 210-230 yard, narrow, ha-ha landform green, from the courses at Biarritz at all... and that's just a misnomer?
E. Did CBM fuse two holes together to form a "Biarritz" template?

VK -

Throw this all under the "to the best of our knowledge" category.

A.  There was a hole known as the Chasm Hole, which apparently had two variations while it existed.  It was noted as the 3rd hole on every routing of the course I've seen.  It was no longer part of the course when CBM visited Biarritz.

Here is Moriarty's descriptions of what CBM and Whigham stated as the influence for the template:

CBM and Whigham visited Biarritz (with Arnaud Massy) in early 1906 on their tour of great courses in preparation for the creation of NGLA, and CBM  mentioned what became known as his Biarritz concept shortly thereafter in a letter printed in a June 20, 1906 NY Sun article about his recent trip abroad:

"The best holes have not been found on the five British championship links alone.  . . . The idea for one hole comes from Biarritz.  The hole in question is not a good one, but it revealed a fine and original principle that will be incorporated into my selection."  

CBM expanded on the description later that year in his article on ideal holes in Outing Magazine where he provided a sample listing of 18 holes:

"15. 210 yards. Suggested by 12th Biarritz making sharp hog back in the middle of the course.  Stopping thirty yards from the hole bunkered to the right of the green and good low ground to the left of the plateau green."

H.J. Whigham repeated this early understanding in 1913 when describing  the inspiration for Piping Rock's Biarritz:  

"There is a Biarritz hole of about 220 yards which is new to this country and is one of the best one-shot holes in existence. There is a hog's back extending to within thirty yards of the green and a dip between the hog's back and the green."

B.  The hole that CBM used as his model was the 12th, which was located in an area of the course known as the Chambre D'Amour, basically down on the beach on land that is now covered by a hotel and parking lots.

C.  It is possible that CBM had heard of the Chasm Hole, saw the site of where it used to lie and it became an influence for later work, but he never discussed it if that was the case.

D.  From CBM's writings, it is evident that the key feature to the hole to him was the hogsback, which became what we now call the front tier of a Biarritz green (in the more common maintenance treatment where those greens are fully grassed as such).  The hogsback feature came from the hole he saw at Biarritz.

E.  If he fused two specific holes together, he never discussed it.  It seems to me that he saw the potential in how a long shot would play over the hogsback, and thought the ideal use for the feature would be on a long par 3.

If anyone wants to wade through the entire thread, it can be found here:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,21926.0.html.  The jist of it is the jury is still out on what hole it was that CBM saw (there are photos of a couple of possibilities), but it was probably one of two different holes that sat down in the Chambre D'Amour.

I had a guy in my group the other day playing Old Mac who insisted the inspiration for #8 was the green at North Berwick (he even went so far as to put the classic pronunciations on both "Berwick" and "Biarritz."  He sounded so authoritative about it I let him have his day.  When we got to the Redan I asked him if he new where the template for it came from.  He had no clue.

Sven

[Bill Brightly]

I had a guy in my group the other day playing Old Mac who insisted the inspiration for #8 was the green at North Berwick (he even went so far as to put the classic pronunciations on both "Berwick" and "Biarritz."  He sounded so authoritative about it I let him have his day.  When we got to the Redan I asked him if he new where the template for it came from.  He had no clue.

Sven

Sven, this guy didn't know you before the pairing, right?

[Sven Nilsen]

I had a guy in my group the other day playing Old Mac who insisted the inspiration for #8 was the green at North Berwick (he even went so far as to put the classic pronunciations on both "Berwick" and "Biarritz."  He sounded so authoritative about it I let him have his day.  When we got to the Redan I asked him if he new where the template for it came from.  He had no clue.

Sven

Sven, this guy didn't know you before the pairing, right?

Never met him before.  He was paired with the guy I was caddying for.

[Jay Mickle]

A great reverse Redan (11th) at the CC of Charleston, also the Lionīs Mouth (16th). If the Lion's Mouth is not a template hole it surely should have been.

[V. Kmetz]

Hi,

Jay, can you (or anyone) elaborate a bit more on "Lion's Mouth"

For starters, what number hole is it...never played or read that much about Charleston...

cheers

vk

[Jay Mickle]

Played the course with my hickories on a very quiet day. Fascinated.by the hole, I played it from various angles both by air and ground. It was great fun. http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/country-club-of-charleston/

[BCrosby]

"I had a guy in my group the other day playing Old Mac who insisted the inspiration for #8 was the green at North Berwick (he even went so far as to put the classic pronunciations on both "Berwick" and "Biarritz."  He sounded so authoritative about it I let him have his day.  When we got to the Redan I asked him if he knew where the template for it came from.  He had no clue."

I would love to have seen Sven's face at that moment.

Bob

[Bill_McBride]

Hi,

Jay, can you (or anyone) elaborate a bit more on "Lion's Mouth"

For starters, what number hole is it...never played or read that much about Charleston...

cheers

vk

The big bunker out front and center on #13 TOC is a Lion's Mouth.  Not a template but a feature.  The par 5 13th at Rustic Canyon has a terrific Lion's Mouth, with the green wrapped around it.  Second shots must be played to the side where the pin is located or chaos ensues. 

[Anthony Gholz]

Regarding the impossible 14th at PV.  It wasn't designed to play at over 200 yards.  In the late 20s it played at 164.  Latest yardage sounds like Fazio to me.  BTW 10 played at 134.

[Anthony Gholz]

sorry ir stupid wrong thread

[Bill Brightly]

I had a guy in my group the other day playing Old Mac who insisted the inspiration for #8 was the green at North Berwick (he even went so far as to put the classic pronunciations on both "Berwick" and "Biarritz."  He sounded so authoritative about it I let him have his day.  When we got to the Redan I asked him if he new where the template for it came from.  He had no clue.

Sven

Sven, this guy didn't know you before the pairing, right?

Never met him before.  He was paired with the guy I was caddying for.

Yeah, it bothers me that most people think a "Biarritz" is any green with a front and back section bisected by a swale.

[V. Kmetz]

Hi,

BB, can you (or anyone) provide one or two extant holes that use the "Plateau" template, you referenced previously?

Also, I'm wondering on these follow-ups, from anyone who can offer:

Is there a "Maiden" hole...? Any example or where does it come from?

Same question for these:

Lido? Channel?

Lastly (for now), was there a specific "Punchbowl" that CBM was thinking of when he grafted it?

thank you all for your past, present and future contributions.

cheers

vk

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