Holes That Are Just Too Hard

[Tim_Weiman]

On another thread, Pat Mucci suggests that the 14th hole at Pine Valley is just too hard playing from the back tee at 215 yards. Hard to argue, at least I can't.

But, it got me to wondering: are there any other holes on courses generally held in high regard that are just too hard?

[JESII]

5 at Merion when greens are 12 on the stimp

8 at Seminole from back tees

18 at Merion when the green is firm

2 on the C-9 at Huntingdon Valley according to some...

[Tom_Doak]

18 at Merion when the green is firm

That was the first one I thought of, too.

[Charlie Ray]

'Any hole that requires a 100 yard carry.'

This coming from the Senior Woman's champ at my club,  she carries a 4 handicap.

But can the raw yardage cause a hole to be truly too hard?

[Tim Martin]

2 Wannamoisett
15 Bethpage Black

[Charlie Ray]

delete

[Joe Hancock]

I'm trying to understand if this question has pertinence match play. Any insights?

Joe

[David Whitmer]

I have only played it once, but I think #9 at Butler National fits the bill. Long par four, with trees overhanging the fairway. I missed the fairway by a foot and did not have a shot at the green. Overly penal, I thought.

[Garland Bayley]

I'm trying to understand if this question has pertinence match play. Any insights?

Joe

If it's too hard, because of a stinking pond, then it's too hard for match play. Usually holes aren't to hard for match play, but when they take away the recovery shot, it stinks.

[BHoover]

Playing 18 at Oakland Hills as a par 4 seems pretty tough to me (or if Mickelson is your Ryder Cup foursomes partner).

[Tim_Weiman]

I'm trying to understand if this question has pertinence match play. Any insights?

Joe

Joe,

I guess I wasn't thinking about the match play issue. Just wondered what holes people would suggest and when we summed it all up how "too hard" would be defined.

For me, one hole comes from the Ocean Course at Kiawah - #13 if I remember correctly. But, only from the crazy back tees, especially with some wind.

[jim_lewis]

#5 on Pinehurst #2 has always killed me.

#1 at Oakmont. Toughest opening hole I've ever seen, followed closely by #1 at Winged Foot West

#11 at ANGC

I agree with #'s 5 and 18 at Merion. Add 17 at Merion

#5 at Pine Valley

Hell, I could named hundreds that are too hard for me.

[Peter Pallotta]

I'm trying to understand if this question has pertinence match play. Any insights?

Joe

Joe, easy for you to ask, since you can make a par just about any time you want, and if you're playing to make no worse than bogey you've got the skill to do that just about every time out. So if you're asking whether a golf hole can be too hard (in stroke play) and at the same time NOT too hard in match play (where "par" is not as significant), I'd say that for YOU the answer is "yes". But I'd also suggest that for ME the answer is probably "no". On a relatively easy golf hole, I can if I choose "play smart" and secure no worse than a bogey most of the time; but on any hole that anyone would describe as "too hard", no manner of psychological tricks (like pretending it's match play) and no amount of "playing smart" is going to make that hole "less hard" for me, or make it any more likely that I'll secure no worse than a bogey (or even somehow find a way to win the hole). Speaking as just one average hack, for me that's where the architect's talent and skill and belief system and imagination REALLY come to the fore, i.e. in his/her ability to make a lovely and flowing and natural looking golf course play "hard", but not "too hard".

Peter
Man, I wish we could get together again one day to play another few rounds of golf!

[JR Potts]

#2 at Isleworth from the back two tees is the hardest 3 I've ever played.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I don't think individual holes can be too hard, but courses can be too hard.

[David_Tepper]

"Foxy," #14 at Royal Dornoch. It only took me 250+ rounds there to make 4 for the 1st time.

[Tim_Weiman]

I don't think individual holes can be too hard, but courses can be too hard.

Mike,

I would venture to say you didn't say exactly what you meant. That is, any architect could build a hole that was simply excessively penal: imagine Pete Dye didn't build the 17th at the TPC to play from 130 yards, but from 230 with the green one third the size.

What would be the point? That would be crazy. That would be "too hard".

So, if you follow my logic, did you mean to say that golf architects may have occasionally pushed the envelope, but really didn't build holes that were "too hard"?

[Joe Hancock]

Peter,

We'll get our chances. I'll promise that right here and now.

David Tepper,

I'm hitting the "no sympathy" button on my computer. 250+ rounds at RD....envy abounds!



Joe

[Jay Mickle]

#5 on Pinehurst #2 has always killed me.

It is now being played as a par five. Continues to instill fear but sure feels great to par it.

[Bill_McBride]

#2 at Isleworth from the back two tees is the hardest 3 I've ever played.

With those goal,post trees?    I was rather underwhelmed by Isleworth the one time I played there. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim,

Good subject.

# 14 at PV from the back tee is really, really, really hard because it's a pass/fail shot.

The other holes mentioned are challenging to difficult, but not "hard" in the sense that # 14 at PV is hard.

The consequences for not executing the tee shot are dire, whereas, on the other holes mentioned, failure to execute is marginally punished.

You may make bogey, or even double, but you won't be making triples, quads and higher, routinely, like you will at # 14.

[Charlie Ray]

Pat and others,

A question I have longed to ask:   Can a singular hole be both 'hard' (resulting in triples and north,  if that is the definition of 'hard') and be strategic?

I would guess that a 'hard' holes REQUIRES a particular shot, and if not executed then there would be corresponding punishment.

thus, I ask how exactly does one define a 'hard' hole?

[John Kirk]

Two brutally difficult holes at Bandon Dunes Resort:

#10 at Old Macdonald
#14 at Bandon Trails

My Dad played Foxy once, at the age of 71, and made a 4.  Bounced his chip shot off the front slope to a front pin and made an 8-footer for par.  

On the same trip, the "Long" hole at Carnoustie seemed too hard, as we played it directly into a 45 mph gale.  I two-putted for an 11.

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat Mucci,

I agree with your explanation.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Charlie,

I think you have to establish several categories for evaluative purposes.

How hard is it to make birdie ?

How hard is it to make par ?

How easy is it to make bogey

How easy is it to make double ?

How easy is it to make triple or higher ?

Then I think you have to answer those questions and come to a consensus on the degree of difficulty