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Sven Nilsen

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Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2015, 08:45:06 PM »
There are also a handful of golf course architecture history experts. Ran, Chris Buie, Sven, Moriarty and a handful of other guys who consistently make valuable new finds that legitimize our niche subject and elevate it to something reasonably scholarly.

There are three guys who should be on any list like the one above before me, namely MacWood, Kennedy and Bausch. 
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Brent Hutto

Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2015, 08:50:45 PM »
Are we talking expertise in the design and construction of golf courses? Or expertise in figuring out who booked passage on what ship in 1913 or whatever it is?

Jason Topp

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Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2015, 09:15:22 PM »
The term "expert"is a semantical exercise with little meaning outside the specific context in which the term is used.

An expert witness must meet certain qualifications mandated by the law of the jurisdiction in which she is testifying.

An expert at designing and building golf courses probably needs to have designed and built golf courses.

An expert at design theory probably needs to have done a lot of reading about architecture and demonstrated mastery over the material.

An expert in history must have learned the appropriate historical research methodologies and had to expound and defend her analysis of particular historical issues.


Bill_McBride

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Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2015, 09:51:46 PM »
Doesn't 10,000 gca.com posts make you an expert? :D

You'd better pick up the pace!   ;D

I was thinking that on GCA an expert is somebody with a keyboard!

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2015, 10:52:29 PM »
In my mind, someone is an expert regarding golf course architecture if their likes and dislikes are the same as mine.

 8)
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2015, 11:47:47 PM »

* You'll say that I'm begging the question, and that what is being discussed here is what constitutes such genuine expertise. But really, do you actually have any doubts? Do you actually find yourself wondering who the genuine experts on the art and craft of gca really are?



And to that point...Ran, what would it take to allow a search by poster function? I love to see what certain people are saying (Peter included) but don't always know where they're hanging out...

cary lichtenstein

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Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2015, 11:17:53 AM »
'It's a profession that demands a rare blend of characteristics: the heart of an artist, the mind of an engineer, and the soul of a golfer. Alister MacKenzie

This is a Herbert Warren Wind quote from the foreword of a more recent edition of MacKenzie's "Golf Architecture".  Regardless of the quoter, the quote is a good one.  

Correct, we've got 1500 experts on this site ;D
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2015, 12:59:49 PM »
Thanks for the answers gentlemen. Lots of valid, arguable points!

I think I subscribe to the notion that there are quite a few experts here on GCA plus a lot that we are not aware of that post only occasionally or simply lurk. I know the list is far deeper than what’s been mentioned so far. For example, we have several very experienced supers reading here that are experts in their area, then there are the likes of the Don Mahaffey’s of this world who could likely improve conditioning on nearly any course out there and are also experts in drainage. There are also many turf experts, shapers etc. Arguably these experts are more worthy of mention than others such as historians.

Personally I don't mind opinionated hobbyists and students of GCA as I'm certain most of us can contribute some pearls of wisdom, varying perspectives or out of the box ways of thinking about GCA at any given time not to mention experience in having played many of the courses we end up discussing, or perhaps I’d only like to believe this is the case. It’s for me always interesting to get other people’s take on courses you have experienced.

Martin's point is very valid of course in that even those that we take as experts can be wrong and make even tragic/careless mistakes. This of course makes you question the real validity of the term “expert” under certain circumstances. The reality is experts are still learning and at any given time could win in valuable points or perspectives from enthusiastic hobbyists.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2015, 03:50:00 PM »
For what it's worth, I don't think you have to be an expert [as defined above] to offer good observations about a golf course.  There have been tons of times when someone with no practical experience has made a good suggestion that we hadn't thought of -- there is no telling where creativity may come from.

Knowing whether that suggestion will really work, is another story entirely.

I do find it interesting that the group is leaning toward practical experience being the cut-off for expertise, at the same time that most architects believe that professional courtesy should prevent one from criticizing another.


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2015, 04:31:35 PM »

I do find it interesting that the group is leaning toward practical experience being the cut-off for expertise, at the same time that most architects believe that professional courtesy should prevent one from criticizing another.

TD,
Hmmmm...would you agree there are many types of practical experience in GCA?  If one spends five years at a drafting table in a signature office and maybe once a month or maybe every two months gets to go on site then I don't consider that near the practical experience of a guy that understands the drafting but is living on the site and "creating" everyday.  Also, professional courtesy in GCA is imaginary but then again professional courtesy got us a lot of the crap that was designed over the last 25 years.  And I say that with full understanding that there is someone somewhere thinking mine are crap also...and I'm cool with that....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2015, 05:06:13 PM »
David - to really understand GCA, I think you need to understand drainage.   And I'm willing to bet that very few non-architects really understand drainage.

The rest of us are largely fanboys, which is great.   But I know I'm no expert.

And yet, I challenge you to find one instance where drainage was indicated as an architectural flaw in a course or individual golf hole.  The only example I can think of is the occasional discussion of catch basins.  I would also challenge the existence of a single comprehensive discussion or paper on the do's and dont's of drainage engineering.

Furthermore, I think most experienced golfers can look at a design and see where the potential drainage issues might be.  Look at the low spots first.


I do find it interesting that the group is leaning toward practical experience being the cut-off for expertise, at the same time that most architects believe that professional courtesy should prevent one from criticizing another.


I agree.  We've spent a lot of time lately identifying who the real architects and engineers are, and noting their superior position to judge the work.  But these people often have professional responsibilities that prevent them from speaking freely on the subject.  Furthermore, the professionals have work related biases that the players and the dilettantes don't.

Mike Young, I think it can be assumed that an architect or design professional can get themselves ostracized by offering too many negative opinions.

Let's take a prime example of experience around here.  Let's say Patrick Mucci has played 75 rounds of golf per year for 50 years.  That's 15,000 hours of golf playing experience.  In addition, Patrick has studied GolfClubAtlas for at least an hour a day for fifteen years, which adds another 5,400 hours of study.  Add in practicing plus hours spent examining golf courses before he was 55 years old, and it's easy to see Patrick has something like 30,000 hours devoted to observing golf.  In addition, he's smart, he's opinionated and he takes chances in his rhetoric.  Pat Mucci is fully qualified to evaluate golf and golf courses.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 05:08:36 PM by John Kirk »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2015, 05:22:22 PM »
[
Mike Young, I think it can be assumed that an architect or design professional can get themselves ostracized by offering too many negative opinions.

Let's take a prime example of experience around here.  Let's say Patrick Mucci has played 75 rounds of golf per year for 50 years.  That's 15,000 hours of golf playing experience.  In addition, Patrick has studied GolfClubAtlas for at least an hour a day for fifteen years, which adds another 5,400 hours of study.  Add in practicing plus hours spent examining golf courses before he was 55 years old, and it's easy to see Patrick has something like 30,000 hours devoted to observing golf.  In addition, he's smart, he's opinionated and he takes chances in his rhetoric.  Pat Mucci is fully qualified to evaluate golf and golf courses.
John,
Not sure I get it ..ostracized by this site??....and offering opinions that don't fit the norm here?   I'mnot sure many in the industry care .....and I certainly don't see an issue with PM being qualified to evaluate golf and golf courses...IMHO most of the green typing I have seen makes sense.  He just happens to be either "stirring" or actually telling some nut that he realizes he is a nut....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mark Pavy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2015, 05:27:49 PM »
Isn't this the thread that proceeded the questioning of the credibility of an author, "who is such an such anyway"?

As to what "expert" is referred to in the thread title, I have a different view from the previously mentioned definitions.
Considering the thread started because of one person questioning the author's credibility, one must assume that the thread is about "expert opinion" on golf course architecture.

So is an "expert" the one who is an "expert on his own opinions" or is an "expert" the one who understands how golf course architecture opinions are formed?

Here's an interesting essay that you may find interesting:
http://www.ukessays.com/essays/cultural-studies/enhancing-architecture-appreciation-through-spatial-perceptions-cultural-studies-essay.php




John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2015, 06:09:55 PM »
Hi Mike,

I am suggesting that industry professionals may risk their reputation among their peers by criticizing or evaluating the work of others.  And that could be bad for business.

With Patrick, I'm saying his 30+ thousand hours of study makes him very qualified to offer an expert level opinion, whether or not they are generously augmented with thoughts I disagree with.😀. (Even I have well over 10000 hours of playing, observing, etc.

Very awkward to contribute.  I hate using a cell phone to type.  Thanks.

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2015, 06:18:01 PM »
John Kirk,
I believe how an architect chooses to drain a course has a huge impact on how well it is perceived and it has a lot to do with how macro drainage is tied into micro drainage - think storm drainage serving golf drainage.

As much as guys like me talk about things like standardization in golf design, the underlying drainage plan is one place I see a lot of variance from one architect to another. Some like ditches, others want to get it into a pipe ASAP. Some will rainwater harvest, most just want to get it away from the site as quickly as possibly.  Good golf drainage design is a lot more than not seeing a low wet spot.
I think when we are criticizing courses here, if we peeled away layers, we'd find what we are really criticizing is the way a course is drained.  

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2015, 06:32:28 PM »
Brian,
I really do not have a view on best practice as I think it is project specific.

In a very simplistic sense, I think it a matter of laying the golf course on natural drainage, or bringing drainage to what you build. Most often probably some of both.

One thing I would like to see is more ditches instead of everything being directed into a pipe ASAP. I think ditches give an old school look, provide some hazard interest to work with, and can provide some cool habitats with some creative dam/weir work.

I think we fear them getting blown up in a major storm, but we can meter the water into a ditch just as we do into a basin with some creative earthwork.  

I'd also like to see more rainwater harvesting and more retention of the precip that falls on the site.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2015, 06:35:45 PM »
Hi Mike,

I am suggesting that industry professionals may risk their reputation among their peers by criticizing or evaluating the work of others.  And that could be bad for business.

With Patrick, I'm saying his 30+ thousand hours of study makes him very qualified to offer an expert level opinion, whether or not they are generously augmented with thoughts I disagree with.😀. (Even I have well over 10000 hours of playing, observing, etc.

Very awkward to contribute.  I hate using a cell phone to type.  Thanks.


got it...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2015, 06:38:11 PM »
John Kirk,
I believe how an architect chooses to drain a course has a huge impact on how well it is perceived and it has a lot to do with how macro drainage is tied into micro drainage - think storm drainage serving golf drainage.

As much as guys like me talk about things like standardization in golf design, the underlying drainage plan is one place I see a lot of variance from one architect to another. Some like ditches, others want to get it into a pipe ASAP. Some will rainwater harvest, most just want to get it away from the site as quickly as possibly.  Good golf drainage design is a lot more than not seeing a low wet spot.
I think when we are criticizing courses here, if we peeled away layers, we'd find what we are really criticizing is the way a course is drained.  
Don,
Wouldn't you agree that drainage is rarely discussed on well drained courses.    :) :) :)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2015, 06:45:20 PM »
Hi Mike,

I am suggesting that industry professionals may risk their reputation among their peers by criticizing or evaluating the work of others.  And that could be bad for business.

With Patrick, I'm saying his 30+ thousand hours of study makes him very qualified to offer an expert level opinion, whether or not they are generously augmented with thoughts I disagree with.😀. (Even I have well over 10000 hours of playing, observing, etc.

Very awkward to contribute.  I hate using a cell phone to type.  Thanks.


John,
I don't know that architects can really hurt their reputations here. Maybe if they went off their rocker and just starting hammering other architects or clients, but I can't see how Doak, Young, Brauer....etc have ever done any harm to their status in the golf world. I think it a better chance that it has helped their status vs hurting them.

I do think lower, middle level guys in the business need to be careful because most of us are trying to work for a lot of different architects/clients and I don't think many architects want us coming here and being critical of projects we've worked on. As much as I like architects, as a group, they are an insecure bunch.  

I believe that is one reason we do not see many design associates, irrigation designers, agronomists, or other support guys contributing here.  Same thing for Supers. Its fine to come here and talk in general about turf issues, or about the well known courses, but that's about as far as many will go.  Everyone in golf knows about Golf Club Atlas and most everyone checks in here from time to time. maybe that is overstated, but it is my experience that most everyone in golf I've met has spent some time reading these pages.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 06:50:11 PM by Don Mahaffey »

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2015, 06:47:40 PM »
John Kirk,
I believe how an architect chooses to drain a course has a huge impact on how well it is perceived and it has a lot to do with how macro drainage is tied into micro drainage - think storm drainage serving golf drainage.

As much as guys like me talk about things like standardization in golf design, the underlying drainage plan is one place I see a lot of variance from one architect to another. Some like ditches, others want to get it into a pipe ASAP. Some will rainwater harvest, most just want to get it away from the site as quickly as possibly.  Good golf drainage design is a lot more than not seeing a low wet spot.
I think when we are criticizing courses here, if we peeled away layers, we'd find what we are really criticizing is the way a course is drained.  
Don,
Wouldn't you agree that drainage is rarely discussed on well drained courses.    :) :) :)

Ok..  ;D


but seriously, don't you think that how an architect feels about using drainge has a big impact on his overall design ethos?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2015, 07:32:35 PM »
Brian,
I really do not have a view on best practice as I think it is project specific.

In a very simplistic sense, I think it a matter of laying the golf course on natural drainage, or bringing drainage to what you build. Most often probably some of both.

One thing I would like to see is more ditches instead of everything being directed into a pipe ASAP. I think ditches give an old school look, provide some hazard interest to work with, and can provide some cool habitats with some creative dam/weir work.

I think we fear them getting blown up in a major storm, but we can meter the water into a ditch just as we do into a basin with some creative earthwork.  

I'd also like to see more rainwater harvesting and more retention of the precip that falls on the site.

Ditches?  Think of Oakmont. 

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2015, 07:42:58 PM »
Gee, an interesting conversation just broke out.  Like that old saying, "I went to a fight, and a hockey game broke out."

Most GCA members probably share my opinion that the least enjoyable conditions to play a shot are from soggy, mushy ground.

(The only time I can think of when wet is good, is playing a partially submerged out of water, which happens less than 1/1000 shots and is great fun.)

With drainage, and other aspects of golf course design, there must be times when the seasoned veteran does not share all of their accumulated knowledge publicly, wishing to maintain an advantage, or at least distinguish themselves, from peers.

I don't think we've had the conversation about the chronically soggy course that could be so much better with proper drainage.  It's probably too sensitive a topic.

Thanks to the industry professionals for the thoughtful comments this afternoon.  Really great; now you must excuse me, I'm off to take two nine year-old girls to a hockey game.

 :D

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2015, 07:59:30 PM »
John,
I don't think anyone wants a wet golf course.
But you can get a dry golf course in many different ways, and that is drainage too.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2015, 08:02:01 PM »
The ability to clearly convey your thoughts in an accepted medium does not make you an expert, it only verifies that you are a sufficient communicator.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes someone an expert with regards to GCA?
« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2015, 08:15:22 PM »
I will proudly stand before my God, family and peers and declare that no man knows what I like more than me. I am the finest mind in golf. The Goat. The greatest of all time.

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