[Bill_McBride]

Ace

I really enjoy the seeming simplicity of New Zealand, but I don't think there is much doubt that it is overly tight....the combo of heather and trees makes for very difficult recoveries..one or the other please.  Do you really think NZ desrves to be top 50 GB&I?  

Bart

I think the bunker placement at Princes is superior to those you mention and Deal.  Plus, there are at least as many very good holes as at Turnberry...just not so pretty.  Finally, there are several holes which bend just enough with wind about to create a difficult test of driving despite too many holes with concave fairways.  Bottom line for me is Princes is seriously under-rated...perhaps because of the neighbourhood.

Don't forget, that within each group I wouldn't have much problem listing the courses in any order.  Its easy to get to caught up in minutiae or give it all too much importance.  One reason I always liked grouping courses is it allows for rater preference.  Using Turnberry, I am fully aware that its beauty will for many trump other issues, but I can't honestly say Turnberry is a superior course to Princes.  To me, the architecture doesn't bear this out...I never liked how the course flows with all its coast holes coming in a bunch.  Do you think Turnberry is a special design, if so, why?

To me, the most interesting designs in the 37-64 grouping are Brancaster, Beau Desert, Kington and Addington.  

Richard

Stoneham has dead flat greens...a big drawback despite its cool routing and handful of very fine holes.  Broadstone to me is deeply flawed. All its best holes come in two spurts...leaving the golfer with an inferior beginning, end and middle stretches.  Its a shame Colt didn't get the entire course on the heath.  I am not completely sold on Bearwood, but it does move well around the property offering good variety and a good set of greens which aren't OTT.  

Ciao

Given its relatively short distance, I didn't find New Zealand to be overly constricted.   But I've only played it once and striped my tee balls all day.

Top 100?   I've only played 30-40 in GB&I, NZ is in my top 30!

With regard to Princes, it was a brute the day I played, narrow FWs mostly parallel to the beach and buffeted by brisk crosswinds all day.  With knee high rough flanking narrow fairways, it was hard to start tee shots out over that punitive rough in hopes of hitting fairways.   I rank it near the bottom of my personal UK list, and bottom of my favorite chain of jewels from Rye to Princes. 

[Mark Chaplin]

David did you pay to play Gullane 1? It cost me £20 and I pitied those paying north of £100 on a Sunday afternoon, to me it's as overrated as "the motorways in the dunes" aka Hillside.

NZ is a short course but I'm struggling to think where trees affect the playing corridor. Back right on 9th tee, is the only problem I can think of.

[Sean_A]

Chappers

It is the heather which makes NZ narrow, but all the trees in the heather make recoveries just about impossible...or at the very least, tiresome.  Countless times I have been stuck trying to hack out of heather, yet under trees...that combo doesn't work well.  Literally, hundreds of trees could come down without any problem at all.  I would say NZ is about as tight as Huntercombe.  

David

I put a number next to each course because that is how I see it, but I am open to changing my opinion.  I only mention grouping so folks don't get overly focused on the number...like many do for mag rankings.  

Ed

I still consider Pennard the king of the 2nd tier links in GB&I, so all the others such as Silloth and Machrihanish have to bring up the rear.  

Sheehy

Maybe Tralee is much improved, but honestly, when I played it, the course was an architectural mess..never been back.  

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Mark,

I didn't find Gullane 1 all that bad. Yes, it is quite severe in its test and of the times I have played it, it seems a better course in the winter than the summer. But the first 5 holes are an excellent start. 7 is a super hole played down the hill and it has a good rhythm to it with an excellent set of par 3s. Having said that I prefer 2 and 3 or Luffness New to it. I wouldn't pay £100+ to play it but then again I don't believe any course is worth that sort of fee.

Sean,

Interesting an eclectic list which is so much more realistic than any of the magazine rankings I have seen. I think you are spot on with the idea of groups of courses rather than individual rankings.

Jon

[Thomas Dai]

Narin & Portnoo in the first group (at 87) but no sign yet of Portsalon and we've seen down to Group2/No 35. I expected from photo-tour reports they'd be bracketed pretty close together.
Atb

[Niall C]

DT

I think you're quite right that identifying courses in a particular grouping rather than giving them a nominal "ranking" in that group would cut out a lot of the comment on relative "rankings", however where's the fun in that  . It does however beg the question of how big the groupings should be ? 1-25, 25-50 etc or even 1-10, 2-20 etc ?

Either way I'm deeply envious of Sean having played all these courses and I suspect if I was to try something similar I would perhaps have to restrict it to the top 50 in Scotland.

Anyway, looking forward to how far up the "rankings" Forfar gets.

Niall

[Rich Goodale]

Don't hold out any hope for Forfar, Niall as Sean's list is very Anglo-centric, and I very much doubt that Arbs has played or even driven by that course.  You will be pleased to know that my more balanced top-100 (inspired by this thread) includes Forfar in the top 70-80 group, along with Pennard, Hesketh and The RAC (Old Course-Fowler), amongst others.

Nice exercise, but I am waiting to see the rest of the 40+ courses that Sean places above Carnoustie....

Rich

[Ryan Coles]

Sean greatly overrates Southerndown in an otherwise pretty good list so far.

[Sean_A]

TD

Portsalon didn't make the cut.  

Rihc

We can't all hold Carnoustie with the deep reverence you do.  


LIST CONTINUED

15.   St Georges Hill
16.   The Island
17.   Formby
18.   Cruden Bay
19.   Royal Aberdeen
20.   Dornoch
21.   Walton Heath New
22.   Portrush
23.   Swinley Forest
24.   Portstewart
25.   Muirfield
26.   Birkdale
27.   Portmarnock
28.   Sunny New
29.   Co Sligo
30.   Woking
31.   Ganton
32.   Sacred 9
33.   Hoylake
34.   Trump Aberdeen
35.   Little Aston

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

Beau Desert low, Ganton high: Sean, have you let the Ineptness of Crowds cryit doon your personal opinion ?

[Sean_A]

Mark

If Beau had a trim I just may place it top 25 GB&I.  Even being too narrow to support absolutely perfect conditions, Ganton is unquestionably a great course.  I can't say that about Beau in its current state even though I think it is a more interesting design than Ganton.

Ciao

[Ed Tilley]

Love the list in general and the fact that Sean is not afraid to put a few sacred cows low down the list. Most of my disagreements are just minor quibbles. That said, Portstewart is crazily high. I liked it a lot but I really can't remember any of the back nine except that it was a massive step down from the front. To put it in the general vicinity of Dornoch is borderline blasphemous!

Looking forward to seeing how high  my beloved St. Enodoc makes it.

[Ed Tilley]

Fascinated to think what the remaining 14 might be. I can think of a few:

TOC
RCD
St. Enodoc
North Berwick
Ballybunion
Lahinch
Sunningdale old
Royal St. George's
Rye
Deal
Walton Heath old
West Sussex

Not sure about the other 2. I think Sean still has a surprise or two up his sleeve for the final 14. Looking forward to it.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Brian,

Dornoch, Pennard and Enniscrone are all gone.

Sunningdale New is one. Alwoodley another. And Renaissance Club the final one. West Sussex won't be there because I don't think Sean has seen it.

The above on the assumption he hasn't seen Kingsbarns or Castle Stuart either. Otherwise he's made a mistake.

[Jon Wiggett]

I'm gonna say West Sussex wont be in there - replace that with Enniscrone - then there are two left. One will be Dornoch. The other will be Pennard. Just my guess!

Brian,

Dornoch at 20 and Pennard at 36

I'm guessing The Belfry and the K Clubb

[Mark Pearce]

Crudeness Bay higher than Dornoch?  Didn't see that coming.  Nor can I understand it.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Mark, I am not sure this mollifies much less addresses your complaint, but just in case:

Bart, I am not sure this changes much less answers your question, but just in case:

It is my contention that the courses within each group can basically be interchanged so the actual number next to a course isn't meaningful as such.

[Thomas Dai]

No mention (yet?) of Cleeve Cloud

atb

[Mark Pearce]

Mark,

I'm struggling to see Cruden Bay (some brilliant holes and one of the best runs of holes (3-8) anywhere in the world but a couple of awful holes and several mundane ones) in the same grouping as Dornoch which, for me, remains in the best handful of courses I have ever played.  I expected Sean's tastes to differ from mine but, knowing many of the courses he loves I still find this one puzzling.  Another in my top 5 is Muirfield but I'm far less surprised to see Sean rate it far lower than I do. 

Anyway, I think we're both agreed he has Ganton far too low.

[Ed Tilley]

Brian,

Dornoch, Pennard and Enniscrone are all gone.

Sunningdale New is one. Alwoodley another. And Renaissance Club the final one. West Sussex won't be there because I don't think Sean has seen it.

The above on the assumption he hasn't seen Kingsbarns or Castle Stuart either. Otherwise he's made a mistake.

OK. West Sussex out. Sunny New is already in. So I'm going for Alwoodley, Renaissance Club, and Prestwick as the final 3. I'm sure Sean has a prize for the first person to guess the last 14 correctly.

[David Davis]

36.   Pennard
37.   Saunton East
38.   Enniscrone
39.   Burnham & Berrow
40.   Brancaster
41.   Porthcawl
42.   Worplesdon
43.   Princes
44.   Hunstanton
45.   Turnberry
46.   Carnoustie
47.   Castle Course  
48.   Beau Desert
49.   Notts
50.   Troon
51.   Lytham
52.   Kington
53.   Carne
54.   Woodhall Spa
55.   West Hill
56.   Edgbaston
57.   Northamptonshire Co
58.   New Zealand
59.   Perranporth
60.   St Andrews New
61.   Southerndown
62.   Saunton West
63.   Addington
64.   Bearwood Lakes

Sean, I think you are just being controversial now ha ha..

Castle Course is pretty high for a 0. ;-)

Turnberry clearly doesn't float your boat, not seen in yet (March I will have my first visit). However, from Top 5 on most lists and hardly top 50 on yours. Even so how could you have Princes ahead of it.

I would have Porthcawl definitely higher in my list. Loved that course. Pennard is also a surprise that high, are you assuming there are no conditioning issues at all and just purely judging on architectural merit? It's a great course but that's high IMO all things considered. I'm a fan of Brancaster as well but it's nowhere near Porthcawl for example and that's only based on the green complexes alone.

I'm excited to fill in some of my gaps from your list in March.

[Sean_A]

David

Just stand back and think of how many really good holes there are at Turnberry.  I think it comes up well short in this regard to be a serious top 25 candidate.

The conditioning of Pennard is generally fine.  Not great by any means, but good enough.  If it was in very good nick I would put Pennard higher up.  It is in my estimation one of the very best designs in GB&I.  

Brancaster gets a boost from due me to originality.  Some of those holes must have been something else over 100 years ago when nobody was designing like that.

Ciao

[David Davis]

15.   St Georges Hill  - surprised to see this course that high but it's certainly a good course.
16.   The Island - interesting.
17.   Formby - Let you know in March.
18.   Cruden Bay - I might even put this higher but it was a long, long time ago. Sure left a strong impressions.
19.   Royal Aberdeen - Sounds about right, front 9 is awesome, back 9 not quite as strong.
20.   Dornoch - Wow, wow, can't believe you have this one so low. Definitely in my Top 10 GB&I
21.   Walton Heath New - Trade off here as I was a lot less impressed though I liked it and the turf here and on WHO was the best by far of anything I've played (in the wet period) around London.
22.   Portrush - Would of guested higher too.
23.   Swinley Forest - About the same for me as well I guess.
24.   Portstewart - not played
25.   Muirfield - hmmm - maybe a love or hate. I didn't love it either but always felt I've missed out on something here and by TOC.
26.   Birkdale - March
27.   Portmarnock - there are pub fights breaking out in Dublin over this rating.
28.   Sunny New - seems pretty high up I guess.
29.   Co Sligo - great course but I can't see this being better than even Brancaster.
30.   Woking - might just have Woking slightly higher
31.   Ganton -
32.   Sacred 9 - for me it's 9 holes so it can't ever get more than half the score, an excellent 9 but no way it's close to that position for me ;-)
33.   Hoylake - March
34.   Trump Aberdeen - maybe March
35.   Little Aston - never played and likely won't happen anytime soon.

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

I agree with you on Turnberry.  No doubt a good course but I do think it gets seriously overrated when put in any UK top 10.

[Sean_A]

David

Walton Heath New is a bit of fresh air.  The start is certainly not very good, but what I like most of all is the width and earthworks...its a ton wider than the Old.  I just wish Fowler's original intent was still going.  A load of the earthworks are now in the rough and some centreline bunkers are gone.  One can really imagine how guys would have tacked around these features before the long ball.  I think it is worth restoring the course to Fowler's vision...there would probaby be a few areas of combined fairways.  The New is certainly one of the more interesting designs I have come across.  

I could care less about the number of holes so the Sacred 9 is always going to feature high on any list of mine.  The course is far too clever and well put together to toss aside because one doesn't like the number of holes.  Its rare that I play an 18 holer and don't think at least a few holes couldn't be dropped...to better overall effect.  I sometimes wish 14 or 15 holes was the established round.  Wheoever invented 18 holes should be shot  

If Woking was firmer turf, I woud have rated it higher    A lot of what ifs that will never come to pass.  

I know what you mean about Sunny New.  I am not a fan of the start or finish, but jeepers there are some holes that the Old can't touch.  From 4 to 14 the course is brilliant. 

Ciao

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