[Jon Wiggett]

Let's be honest, out and back designs aren't ideal... But wind is only one part of the equation. The bigger part is that it reduces the sense of adventure that you get from exploring an interesting site. By retracing your steps, in some part you know exactly where the golf course is going to take you next.

But both of these points form only a small part of my overall qualitative opinion of a course.

TOC, Machrihanish, Dornoch and North Berwick all have large elements of out and back and are probably in my top 15 courses in GB&I with TOC and Dornoch likely Top-5.

I do not see any problem with the out and back design. It is rare that they go in a straight line out and then return back right next to the outward holes. I would class almost any course that does not come back to the clubhouse for the majority of the course as an out & back so even courses such as Prestwick is such a design as it takes 14 holes to get back home. Equally, Notts is such a course for me even though it returns to the clubhouse after 3 holes it then does not come back between 4 and 18.

I also would not say that most out and backs lack adventure or lack of holes going in different directions. If you look at many of the great inland courses such as Alwoodley, Woodhall Spa, Ganton, Sunningdale Old and New, Kington ( ) etc. many are out and back

Jon

[Niall C]

Out and back designs -

What seems to be straight out and staight back often isn't. There are arcs and crescents and all that.

Take Aberdovey. As was pointed out to me while I was there, you're unlikely to believe standing on the 1st tee that the par-4 1st hole and the par-3 9th hole point in the same direction. But the coastline is an arc, so they do.

On returning I took a yardage book of my usual course and marked cross-hairs for n-s-e-w against each hole. When standing on various tees the next time I played I was rather surprised which way the holes actually pointed in realtion to one another. Made me consider wind direction a bit differently.

Perhaps one reason why the rules don't allow compass's to be used?

atb

atb

Nice post. You are absolutely correct that out and back designs generally don't have holes that are strictly aligned. If you also factor in the difference in angle when you aim for one side of the fairway rather than the other, and what that means in terms of angle into the wind for your next shot then the notion you are playing the same angle all the time becomes a fallacy. Thats before you factor in that typically the strength and direction of the wind will change over the course of a round and you wonder how this idea of different wind directions took hold.

Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Jon,

Sounds like you have a looser definition of "out and back" than me...

An "out and back" routing can be expected to have the odd kink such as a par-3 reversing direction (or the par-4 17th at Dornoch). It can also be expected to have slight degrees of angle changes between each hole. But it has to play in a relatively narrow parcel of land so as returning holes play alongside outgoing holes. That parcel of land was traditionally set by the dune ridges and links landscape.

So most of the courses Jon describes are not true "out and backs" by my definition... Thomas has a valid point on subtle wind changes as the holes follow a curved coast but still, it is stretching it to think that an out and back routing is as interesting in terms of wind and site exploration as a routing such as Muirfield.

But as I said above, TOC and Dornoch are among my favourites. So it obviously doesn't form a huge factor in my qualitative opinion.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ally,

for me out & back is exactly what it says. It goes OUT away from the clubhouse at the start AND then comes BACK to the clubhouse at the end. I do not see the point of further defining it by adding degrees of turn allowed or maximum width of land being used. By your definition there must be so few out & backs as to make discussing them quite narrow. Up here in the Highlands I could only think of Wick that fits the bill

Jon

[Bill_McBride]

Out and back to me means the ninth green and tenth tee are not at the clubhouse. 

Famous story in my family:  my dad was walking Pebble Beach with a caddie and my mom walking along, first time he had ever seen the place or even a plan.   He starts with a couple of sleeves of balls and, after a few mishaps along the cliffs, has one ball left as they approach the ninth green.  "Good thing we'll be back at the clubhouse soon, I need more ammo."    "Sorry to have to tell you this sir," says the caddie, "but we're as far away as we can be after ten."   So Pop sucks it up and finishes the round with that lone ball, and birdies 17 and 18. 

Cypress Point, Olympic Lake and the Valley Club are other famous California out and back courses. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Bill, Jon, you surprise me.

"Out and Back" by my definition is almost solely as a function of the site, primarily due to the way links land forms.

TOC, Dornoch, Deal, North Berwick, Dunbar, Nairn, Royal Dublin, Troon are all examples, most with a few kinks but all restrained to parallel holes because of the site.

Can't think of any inland courses off the top of my head.

Merely having the 9th green removed from the clubhouse (e.g. the majority of British courses) is an example of  a course with non-returning nines, a much larger all encompassing routing category.

Be interested in what others think. Regardless, it won't change my definition.

[Jon Wiggett]

Bill, Jon, you surprise me.

"Out and Back" by my definition is almost solely as a function of the site, primarily due to the way links land forms.

TOC, Dornoch, Deal, North Berwick, Dunbar, Nairn, Royal Dublin, Troon are all examples, most with a few kinks but all restrained to parallel holes because of the site.

Can't think of any inland courses off the top of my head.

Merely having the 9th green removed from the clubhouse (e.g. the majority of British courses) is an example of  a course with non-returning nines, a much larger all encompassing routing category.

Be interested in what others think. Regardless, it won't change my definition.

Ally,

are they really? Dornoch is not parallel as you assume but rather has hole at various angles. North Berwick or Nairn is the no more out so than Alwoodley. Bill and I have both defined what for us is out and back so could you clearly define yours.

Jon

[Ally Mcintosh]

All the courses I referred to have a large portion of the routing defined by a site corridor that allows only two parallel (or almost parallel) holes. In other words few allowances for a change in direction by nearer 90 degrees. That's my definition.

Dornoch runs that way from 3 to 14. Nairn only has 13 and 14 as the kink, Royal Dublin only 7, 15 and 18 as the kinks, Troon the first 6 and last 6 define the "out and back".

All these courses have long, thin site boundaries defined by the dune formations.

Alwoodley has an element of this but really it is just the 1, 2, 17 and 18 portion on the clubhouse side of the road. The rest of the site provided a lot more opportunity for variety in routing.

[Sean_A]

Ally

I am solidly in your camp. Out n' back in golf literature refers to courses which run for long stetches in essentially two directions and don't return to the house before the 18th except for maybe early or late in the round...not near the 9th.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Ally,

I understand what you are saying but to my mind you pick and choose when to apply your definition. Dornoch from 3-14 you are happy to have as an out and back yet dismiss Alwoodley which is 1,2 & 17,18 you say. Yet does not 3 also follow this straight line and 4 is very close to the parallel. 5 & 6 are also in the same direction 7 is a sideways par 3 which earlier you were happy to include as part of your definition but now no longer it seems. 8 through 15 follow the out and back well. Indeed only 3 holes (2 par 3s and a par 4) are not playing either away from or towards the clubhouse. Only the 4th doubles back. I would not say that Alwoodley had any more width in its plot than Dornoch.

Sean,

do you mean running essentially in one direction for many holes before turning and coming back parallel or can it switch direction every other hole?

Jon

[Thomas Dai]

Bit of a struggle to think of many olde period out-n-back style links courses where the 9th green -10th tee isn't away from the Clubhouse, although someone will probably now come up with a long list to prove differently! One that comes to mind is Western Gailes, which has the Clubhouse nearly in the middle with holes stretching away on either side.
atb

[Sean_A]

Jon

I spose instead of playing out n' back on a narrow property it could be designed across the width of the property, back n' forth, but I somehow don't think it would be highly thought of    Burnham used to essentially be designed in this way playing back n' forth over a dune line...very sporty they say.  

I think you are over-thinking this.  The original point was, and quite rightly, that ideally it is better for holes to move around the property so the wind changes are often and pronounced...ala Murifield  Some properties don't afford this luxury to a strong degree.  Therefore they essentially play away and come back to the house..ala TOC.  Yes, there will be minor wind changes and yes, there will likely be hitches here and there, but that isn't what the overall picture of the course is...hence out n' back.  It was also pointed out that while importnat, often and pronounced wind changes and not the be all and and end all of design.  That isn't so hard to accept...is it?

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

I am wracking my brain trying to remember the name of a course I used to play in Finland (I think?) that was 8 holes switching backwards and forward finishing with one coming back to the clubhouse. It was pretty tedious playing there.

I think I understand what you are getting at even if your last paragraph with ending point was pretty difficult to decipher.

There is however a big difference between the course going away and not coming back for most of the course which is my understanding of an out and back and one where the 9th is at the end of a straight run of holes before turning back. In such a case I can only think of Wick and maybe Nairn if you ignore the three sideways holes (13-15) which fits the bill in the Highlands and possibly NB plus Dunbar? in East Lothian.

Jon

[Ally Mcintosh]

Jon,

Granted Alwoodley has an out and back feeling to it. But the centre portion of the site was wide enough to enable some interesting routing options. The majority of the Dornoch routing is 160 yards across giving none of those options. Still, I'll give you Alwoodley...

Really I reserve the term for links courses that were routed that way through necessity of land. In fact, I'd go as far to say that most of the kinks that have been added (such as switchback par-3's and perhaps the 13th / 14th at Nairn) were added after the fact to enable greater length to be squeezed from a finite length of land.

If Trump Balmedie had the clubhouse situated where the 4th green is now, I'd call that an out and back as well, albeit with the major switchback at 12 & 13... As it is, I'll stick with a "Figure-8" routing. Once you bring the ability to route triangles in to your plan, then I cease to think of a site as an out and back. I guess for me it's about overarching routing possibilities...That's the way I look at it...

[Mark Pearce]

God wick is an example of a course on a narrow strip where the. 9th returns to the clubhouse.  The first plays across the strip to the far side, 2-6 effectively play North up the coastline (albeit with a double back on 5), 7-9 play back to the clubhouse before 10-13 take you to the far end of the property before 14-17 bring you back to near the 1st green and 18 plays back across the strip to the clubhouse.  An out and back with plenty of options for mini-loops.

[Niall C]

Bit of a struggle to think of many olde period out-n-back style links courses where the 9th green -10th tee isn't away from the Clubhouse, although someone will probably now come up with a long list to prove differently! One that comes to mind is Western Gailes, which has the Clubhouse nearly in the middle with holes stretching away on either side.
atb

atb

Western is an interesting one as you say the clubhouse sits in the middle of the course although in many respects it is actually an out and back design in the sense that you have a string of parallel holes going in opposite directions. I doubt it would make either Sean or Allys definition of out and back even though there is less variation in direction than you have at Troon, Dornoch or North Berwick.

Niall 

[Niall C]

I think you are over-thinking this.  The original point was, and quite rightly, that ideally it is better for holes to move around the property so the wind changes are often and pronounced...ala Murifield  Some properties don't afford this luxury to a strong degree.  Therefore they essentially play away and come back to the house..ala TOC.  Yes, there will be minor wind changes and yes, there will likely be hitches here and there, but that isn't what the overall picture of the course is...hence out n' back.  It was also pointed out that while importnat, often and pronounced wind changes and not the be all and and end all of design.  That isn't so hard to accept...is it?

Ciao

Sean

Sorry mate but in stating that pronounced wind changes is ideal and indeed a luxury, you imply it as a fact. Frankly that's bollocks and I don't care that some of the ODG's had it as their design criteria. MacKenzie for one played fast and loose with some of his design criteria and was known to regret publishing his list as clients/critics took it too literally. I think you probably see that today with raters having partially judged a course on these aspects before they have even got on the first tee.

Thankfully you're average punter in the UK is blissfully unaware of these supposed ideals and judges courses not by the tick box method but by is it challenging and fun. I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees out and back as adding character to a course. After all we talk about the front nine of Royal Aberdeen, the back nine at TOC and back nine at Troon. Who talks about the front/back nine at Muirfield ?

Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Niall, we talk about the back 9 at TOC because 11 to 17 is perhaps the single best string of holes in the world. It is great despite its out and back routing which admittedly does have its advantages in this case, primarily the buzz of getting closer and closer to the old grey toon arena that is the final hole.

If Muirfield wasn't routed as it is, it wouldn't be so highly thought of.

Every routing decision brings with it a compromise elsewhere. That is why MacKenzie might have regretted some of his hard and fast rules. Doesn't mean his initial thoughts weren't his preferences for the best course.

Bottom line - Out and back isn't ideal in most players and most architects opinions. The majority wins.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,

Granted Alwoodley has an out and back feeling to it. But the centre portion of the site was wide enough to enable some interesting routing options. The majority of the Dornoch routing is 160 yards across giving none of those options. Still, I'll give you Alwoodley...

Really I reserve the term for links courses that were routed that way through necessity of land. In fact, I'd go as far to say that most of the kinks that have been added (such as switchback par-3's and perhaps the 13th / 14th at Nairn) were added after the fact to enable greater length to be squeezed from a finite length of land.

Once you bring the ability to route triangles in to your plan, then I cease to think of a site as an out and back. I guess for me it's about overarching routing possibilities...That's the way I look at it...

Ally,

Except for the area by the 15th green is Alwoodley really any wider than Dornoch? But still you gave Alwoodley the pass only to take it back as it really only links courses. Ally, I really think you need to be a little more fair handed.

With Nairn are you sure that it is only the 13th and 14th that are sideways to the out and back? I could have sworn 15 was too. Still I am sure if the majority of players agree it is just the two than 15 will suddenly turn 90 degrees to allow the majority to win


Triangles you say, well I guess that's NB out as well

Jon

[Ally Mcintosh]

Jon, you seem to be taking it all a bit too literally, my dear man. Only triangle at NB is at the end of the site. The rest is as skinny as the bloke who has to run around in the shower to get wet.

Again, it's a function of site. Nothing else. Almost always, skinny sites are links land. Such forced boundaries are far less natural on arbitrarily designated inland sites.

With apologies to Google Earth,

SKINNY (North Berwick)


MALNOURISHED (Dornoch)


IN NEED OF A GOOD FEED (Deal)


SIGNS OF A POT BELLY (Alwoodley)


OVERFED (Sunningdale)


POSITIVELY SPHERICAL (Ganton)

[Jon Wiggett]

Ally,

I was just being a little facetious but not in a nasty way. The difference between my definition and yours is mine stands up to self scrutiny where as you are tying yourself up in knots refining yours.

Yes, you are correct that the only triangle at NB is at the end but if we take your statement of 'Once you bring the ability to route triangles in to your plan, then I cease to think of a site as an out and back' then hey presto NB is no longer an out and back (but only for you ) Deal too.

Selective application of a point of view is a poor way of putting an argument together. If I look at Dornoch from 1.74 Km instead of 2.49km Dornoch starts to look a little pot bellied. You need to simplfy your concept if it is to be all encompassing,

I think we should probably stop this discussion so as to allow the thread to return to the very worthy discussion of Sean's list

Jon

[Ally Mcintosh]

Jon,

Sean knows what I mean. I'm pretty sure most others do too. No knots in my admittedly not always clear reasoning.

You can't seriously bracket North Berwick and Ganton in any same routing / site category other than non-returning nines? Why not just use that all encompassing title for what you describe.

But yes, I see Ran has un-stickied Sean's sticky. Probably an indication we should get back on topic.

[Matt MacIver]

I stumbled across this thread today searching for some info on Co. Louth. It’s 2.5 years later - time to get back on topic?  Guessing Sean has now Sean KB, Stuart and Dormoch, among others?  Hopefully he’ll find a way to fit Gleneagles Kings in somewhere? 

[Jerry Kluger]

For some reason when I play an out and back routing I almost immediately think about the wind and how it will be playing on the way out and the way back in.  When I played North Berwick for the first time the wind was in our face on the way out and with us on the way back in.  The next day we played it again only this time the wind had turned around and I immediately realized on the first hole the challenge that we faced playing the inward nine into the wind.

[Thomas Dai]

Many out-n-back links courses might on playing seem to go out and back in straight lines, but in reality they don’t, instead they arc and and twist and curve to some degree.
Take Aberdovey for example. Locals will admit to you (quietly) that whilst the 1st and the 9th seem on the ground to be at right-angles to one another if you look at a course map you’ll find that they actually play in vertually the same direction.
Atb

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()