[Ryan Coles]

You asserted that Saunton 'has' inferior playing conditions. It should be 'had'. To keep banging on about it as if the conditions you experienced are the norm or reflective of conditions that most will experience is a generalisation and a crass one at that considering events in the local area proceeding your visit.

[Sean_A]

Saunton has gone through some very difficult winters which have no doubt effected conditions throughout the year.  Garland, I am surprised this didn't seem readily apparent since you played Tenby and it was a mess because of terrible winter weather.  

Its very difficult to generalize about conditions after one visit.  On the other hand, one visit is often all we have time and money to afford...and as they say, there is only one opportunity to make a first impression.  

I think Saunton East is a very classy design which warrants more than one visit, but I have been going there for over 20 years and haven't found the rough to be friendly in close to 20 years.  During this same 20-25 years there is absolutely no question in mind that practically every championship aspirational club (indeed, I can't think of a single exception) in the country has narrowed fairways and allowed rough to be a more punishing and significant element of the daily set-up.  Only so much can be blamed on weather and nesting birds....

Ciao  

[Mark Chaplin]

Garland obviously you've played UK links golf several time a season over the past 30 years? My generalisation probably has a little more fact threaded through it as I play it every week.

Despite half of Deal being under water for 3 months in the winter, I have pictures of Rob Page (a GCA lurker) and I playing in June with a Kiwi superintendent during the only 2 weeks of the year when the course firmed up and went brown, two weeks later and for the rest of the summer it was green and soft(ish). Two summer visitors would have had a very different impression of the place a month apart.

[Sean_A]

Very good list Sean of which I have played about half of them though many so long ago as to not remember. I think what makes such lists such hot talking points is what criteria you use to pick them. Though many think they would chose on quality of GCA most I suspect are just as influenced by the reputation a course already has, pressure from the group and there own playing experiences on a particular course.

Jon

Isn't one obligated to consider reputations (opinions of others) when making a best of list?  To me this is one of the big differences between best and favourites lists.  For my favourites I could care less what others have said or believe about courses...its purely my call using criteria that is important to me.  I don't think that approach works well when considering the best courses because best implies to me some sort of concensus.  Otherwise, people are not really comparing like for like.  I know its impossible to fully pull this off, but I do think its an obligation of a best of rater to attempt to do so.  I think this is why groups of raters have added validity in the eyes of many.

Ciao

[Jud_T]

Sean,

What's your opinion of Wentworth East?  At the time I was pissed that we couldn't get out on the West, but now I think I might have gotten the better end of the deal.

[Sam Krume]

Gladly agree with Sean reg Princes. Often over looked by the golfing cognoscenti as the poor sister along that stretch of coast line but what with the recent work on the course over the last couple of years I believe we will see a gradual reappraisal and love for for this course. As Sean has mentioned the bunkering at Princes is fantastic, some of the best placed bunkers I have ever had the misfortune of encountering(!!) and now the Himalayas are on par with the shore and the dunes. A definite must play once again.

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

I'm not sure I agree about considering reputations.  I'd rather know what you think of the quality of a course and its design, rather than your opinion being coloured by what you understand others to believe.  I have played enough golf with you and read enough of your profiles and other comments to have a reasonable picture of what you like and don't like and what you think is good architecture.  In the same way as reading individuals' opinions on wines enables you to form a view as to what you will and won't like as you get a feel from reading their views on wines you have tried, so it goes with golf courses, I think.  For me the unadulterated Arble opinion is worth more than a modified one based on the views of others.

[Scott Warren]

Sean,

Wow, you must really fucken hate Baltray if you considered others' opinions and still had it up the arse end of the list.

Conversely, you must be even firmer for Deal than I am if you considered public opinion and still had it #2!! (But I love you for it - don't get me wrong!)

[Mark Pearce]

Scott,

I was a bit worried about where Sean really rates Muirfield, given that he has it at 25 in the UK whilst some others have it in the world top 10 and virtually everyone else puts it in the UK top 10!

[Ally Mcintosh]

The best thing about this list is seeing the amount of golf Sean has played in GB&I (given that many to most courses have had at least one repeat visit)... It's really quite something.

It is also the easiest list to have a pop at, primarily because we have seen his opinions change a little over the years, sometimes even with hindsight and without revisiting a course. The generation of this list has basically been under public scrutiny ever since he started participating on this forum... So we should give him a break... If we publically saw the flip-flop, random nature of all the magazine lists and those who rate courses on much less information, we'd probably have a field day...

[Sean_A]

Jud

No opinion on Went East as I barely remember the course.  

Mark

Reputations are basically opinions of people so I don't see an issue with taking notice when making a list.  Plus, I know my favouritism lies toward the unusual, earthworks, varied greens, subtlety, imaginative alternatives to bunkering, in your face features etc rather than straight forward design which may be good if unispiring and unoriginal.  I try to be conscious not to push this agenda too far.  Finally, to be sure, I haven't played most of the courses nearly enough times to be dead confident of their placement...to a large degree its guesswork..so to me its helpful to take on board what others think.  Its probably easy to forget that I don't really put a lot of stock into "best".  Once a course hits a certain quality level its good enough and I would rather bring on board extraneaous issues which don't really merit consideration of "best", but are still important to me as my goal is to enjoy the day and the experience...the golf course is the major piece of the puzzle, but by no means the only piece.  If you want my unadulterated opinion see my favourites list...no mention of Muirfield  

Scott

My over-riding memory of Baltray are the flat holes which didn't impress me.  It makes the top 100 mainly because of the opinion of others.  I assume I discounted a lot of good architecture.  Maybe one day I will get back.

Deal is a great, great course.  No matter what my misgivings are about the difficulty of the finish, there is still one hell of a load of great architecture in that stretch.  To me, despite the out n' back arrangement, the terrain and turf is just about perfect for golf and that moves it well up the list just for this as to find this combination is so very rare.  Throw in the greens (in terms of contour, variety and location) and I find it incredible that anybody could say its not top 100 world material.  I know the sea wall is a bugger for many in terms of the aesthetic being compromised, but for me this is small beer compared to the quality of the course...and I am not even a big fan of Deal!  

Ally

Yes, the list is a snapshot in time with no hard rules.  I admit that I can't quite fathom how to properly devise a best list.  It baffles me that people can be so certain about the placement of courses based on so few plays.  Perhaps I am too indecisive in these matters.  In any case, its all a bit of fun.  I don't mean to upset anybody.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Ally,

I can't imagine Sean would have posted this list if he didn't want us to discuss it and I'm pretty sure he can handle the odd pop, too!

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

I am interested as to why you think an out and back layout is a negative from a GCA point of view. Especially as all of you top 6 are effectively out and back layouts.

Jon

[Mark Chaplin]

Jud I've played Wentworth West plenty over the years, the current edition is a competition course, it's relentlessly difficult and each shot requires the correct execution, something handicap players fail at . Unfortunately the greens have been poor since the renovation and show no sign of getting much better. Personally I like 18 the previous hole was pretty boring and the round sort of fizzled out.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I am interested as to why you think an out and back layout is a negative from a GCA point of view. Especially as all of you top 6 are effectively out and back layouts.

Jon

Jon

Wind.  That said, terrain and turf trump wind so TOC gets a pass.  That said again, Sunny Old has a few wee switches, but the wind isn't nearly the factor it is on open links so out n' back isn't terriblly important for tree lined courses. 

Prestwick is certainly not a straight forward out n' backer.  There are plenty of directional changes in the routing...same for Lahinch. 

North Berwick, well its way too cool to simply try and pigeon hole it as an out n' backer.   

Ciao

[David Davis]

Sean,

Just glancing at your list again. Love your Top 5 as most probably do. Out of those I personally have Old Course the lowest based on my first and only play back in 2006. I do realize I need to get back now that I have a totally different view on life (golf) and stop being an Old Course heathen. After all I do want to believe...

If you had to assign a percentage value that quirk would play in a course being in your Top 5 or actually anyplace else on your list what would that be? I guess it's really high for you depending on what we define as quirk. i.e...blind shots, originality, pure funkiness etc etc...

[Mark Bourgeois]

 

Ally

Yes, the list is a snapshot in time with no hard rules.  I admit that I can't quite fathom how to properly devise a best list.  It baffles me that people can be so certain about the placement of courses based on so few plays.  Perhaps I am too indecisive in these matters.  In any case, its all a bit of fun.  I don't mean to upset anybody.

Ciao

This is what makes the exercise worthwhile. Sean groups his courses by quality, or doesn't produce a rank-ordered list, and still is unsure. Get back to him in a few years and while the courses remain the same, his opinion will change. In case it's not clear, I intend for my comments to be received positively. Not criticizing.

[Niall C]

I'm with Jon, I can't see the issue with out and back designs. It's not as though the wind doesn't change direction and strength however slightly in any case during the course of a round. That in itself gives the variation that raters  crave but really whats wrong with knowing you've got a tough stretch ahead of you into the wind and bracing yourself for that, or alternatively knowing you've got several hoels going the other with an opportunity to score.

Trying to design for the wind just seems like southern softy nonsense to me.

Niall

[Ryan Coles]

Sean's is the first dissenting voice in respect of Dornoch being among the best of the elite that I've heard and the highest praise for North Berwick, which I've not played and isn't near the top of my to do list. Are there any dissenting voices on North Berwick?

[Rich Goodale]

Sean's is the first dissenting voice in respect of Dornoch being among the best of the elite that I've heard and the highest praise for North Berwick, which I've not played and isn't near the top of my to do list. Are there any dissenting voices on North Berwick?

Not sure what you mean by dissenting, Ryan.  The consensus on this site is very positive vis a vis North Berwick, much more positive than in most objective rankings.  I personally think that NB is a very good golf course, with a lot of interesting holes but also a lot of very average ones.  It is overrated on this site IMO due to its quirkiness, its accesibiity and the MacRaynor connection (The Redan, and Aw' that).

[Mark Pearce]

Ryan, I think Rich and I are the most "dissenting" in relation to NBWL.  It's a very good course with a number of brilliant holes but a few more mundane ones.  It is very loved here because of it's quirk.  It is probably the second best course in East Lothian.  NBWL is probably in the best 30 or 40 courses in the country, Dornoch is certainly in the top 10.  All in my opinion, obviously.

[Sean_A]

David

I have no clue about "percentage of quirk".  I know that I like and welcome good quirk...don't care if its archie made or pre-existing...just has to be good.  

Mark

I get to know courses better over time and so there is no question my views change quicker and more often than courses change.  

Niall

We shall have to agree to disagree about wind.  All things being equal I much prefer a routing more like Muirfield than Deal, but one always has to be cognizant of the terrain and turf...over the last 10-15 years T&T have probably become for me the most important features of a course.  

Ryan

Just from reading your posts I am not convinced you would dig North Berwick, but you should still give it a go sometime.  Unlike Rihc and Mark, I don't believe there are any more mundane holes at NB than at any other top course in GB&I.  Even so, its high points are a match for any course and much more unusual than most...I put a lot of stock in this.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Out and back designs -

What seems to be straight out and staight back often isn't. There are arcs and crescents and all that.

Take Aberdovey. As was pointed out to me while I was there, you're unlikely to believe standing on the 1st tee that the par-4 1st hole and the par-3 9th hole point in the same direction. But the coastline is an arc, so they do.

On returning I took a yardage book of my usual course and marked cross-hairs for n-s-e-w against each hole. When standing on various tees the next time I played I was rather surprised which way the holes actually pointed in realtion to one another. Made me consider wind direction a bit differently.

Perhaps one reason why the rules don't allow compass's to be used?

atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

Let's be honest, out and back designs aren't ideal... But wind is only one part of the equation. The bigger part is that it reduces the sense of adventure that you get from exploring an interesting site. By retracing your steps, in some part you know exactly where the golf course is going to take you next.

But both of these points form only a small part of my overall qualitative opinion of a course.

TOC, Machrihanish, Dornoch and North Berwick all have large elements of out and back and are probably in my top 15 courses in GB&I with TOC and Dornoch likely Top-5.

[Sean_A]

Ally

I agree.  Wind matters, but it isn't the defining factor of design.  That said, the added difficulty wind can bring to already very challenging championship courses can add a layer of problems...otherwise some stretches of holes like Deal's home stretch wouldn't have nearly the fearsome and deserved rep it does.  I know guys on this site talk about 30, 40 and 50mph winds like it is as common as the sunrise, but it is isn't that uncommon for wind to get up to 15mph and that sort of wind (and more) can be very trying... and make golf seem more about survival than fun.

Ciao

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