[John Kavanaugh]

I went to Capstone. I remember a fog delay. Can't remember anything else. I didn't send my son to LSU for the golf, doubt that I will ever take my clubs for a visit. Side note:  The last round I ever played with John Bernhardt was at a Neal Meagher course.

[Bill_McBride]

I went to Capstone. I remember a fog delay. Can't remember anything else. I didn't send my son to LSU for the golf, doubt that I will ever take my clubs for a visit. Side note:  The last round I ever played with John Bernhardt was at a Neal Meagher course.

Which one?

[John Kavanaugh]

Maderas Golf Club. The story was a call back to an earlier request about young architects.

[Jim Nugent]

Boston GC is the only original design I've seen, but I was very impressed by it.  Some awesome green complexes.

Seems like a good candidate for Ran to profile.  But I don't see it among the Next Fifty. 

[Tommy Naccarato]

I can only remember one hole at Rustic but I recall every shot at Riviera. Rustic was a pioneer in the current value based minimalist movement. It is an important course but far short of a great one.

Did you think possibly because you gave yet to rake even a swing at Rustic canyon, let alone play one hole?

Your current viewpoint is not anything close to what you told me when you called me to tell me you were in town, I called into work, called in sick, picked you up at your hotel and drove you out there for a tour because you didn't have time to play.  Your words to me about the course were far different.  Perhaps this is because of that one last brain molecule left, trying to dodge all that alcohol?  Or, possibly too much casino time at the card club's?

You had a lot of love fir Hanse then, but certainly "Love is never having to say your sorry........."

[John Kavanaugh]

I can only remember one hole at Rustic but I recall every shot at Riviera. Rustic was a pioneer in the current value based minimalist movement. It is an important course but far short of a great one.

Did you think possibly because you gave yet to rake even a swing at Rustic canyon, let alone play one hole?

Your current viewpoint is not anything close to what you told me when you called me to tell me you were in town, I called into work, called in sick, picked you up at your hotel and drove you out there for a tour because you didn't have time to play.  Your words to me about the course were far different.  Perhaps this is because of that one last brain molecule left, trying to dodge all that alcohol?  Or, possibly too much casino time at the card club's?

You had a lot of love fir Hanse then, but certainly "Love is never having to say your sorry........."

Tommy,

I do recall the truck ride, we even had a conference call with Noel Freeman...It was an epic event.  I don't recall if or why we didn't play golf that day but I have played Rustic close to a dozen times.  I thought I played the course every instance when I visited L.A.  I can say that I played most of my rounds with my good friend Moriarty, the most memorable being the time I had the gout that I had mistaken for a bowling injury.

All this occurred in what seems like a lifetime ago, a sweet life at that.  Rustic was new on the scene, I was just a rube from the midwest finding his way onto the architectural world that we all now take for common and making new friends outside the scope of my comfort zone.  It doesn't surprise me, and would if I had not, that I enthusiastically confirmed your love for something so dear to your heart.

[Michael George]

John - I am not offended by your question and I actually don't think your initial question was designed to be a slight on Gil Hanse.  I think it was more directed at why there appears to be such group think in golf course architecture and why great jobs are not spread among architects that have proven themselves.

By all accounts, Gil does great work, just like C &C and Doak.   But why does Mike Keiser continually use the same people.  Why isn't he willing to use other qualified people that could use the star power that he provides.  And then why do other developers and existing courses just follow in step.  From a business perspective, I fully understand the model - if it isn't broke, don't fix it and these guys know my style and deliver a winning product.  So please, I am not criticizing Mike Keiser and if it was my money, I would probably do the same thing.  However, his ability to make "kings" in the industry is a rightful discussion on this board.

A couple of people on this string asked for names.  OK, here are some (obviously some of these people have gotten more "special" opportunities than others):

Kyle Phillips
Mike Nuzzo 
Michael DeVries
Dave Zinkand

[John Kavanaugh]

Michael,

The problem with lists like yours is that people like me wonder why you don't throw my brother a bone. It was nice to see Brauer get a toss.

[Jud_T]

John - I am not offended by your question and I actually don't think your initial question was designed to be a slight on Gil Hanse.  I think it was more directed at why there appears to be such group think in golf course architecture and why great jobs are not spread among architects that have proven themselves.

By all accounts, Gil does great work, just like C &C and Doak.   But why does Mike Keiser continually use the same people.  Why isn't he willing to use other qualified people that could use the star power that he provides.  And then why do other developers and existing courses just follow in step.  From a business perspective, I fully understand the model - if it isn't broke, don't fix it and these guys know my style and deliver a winning product.  So please, I am not criticizing Mike Keiser and if it was my money, I would probably do the same thing.  However, his ability to make "kings" in the industry is a rightful discussion on this board.

A couple of people on this string asked for names.  OK, here are some (obviously some of these people have gotten more "special" opportunities than others):

Kyle Phillips
Jeff Brauer
Keith Foster
Mike Nuzzo  
Steven Smyers
Michael DeVries
Dave Axland
I have not played one of his courses, but how about John's friend, Neal Meagher.

Not sure any of those guys qualify as "young".  If we're talking about top shelf talent under the age of 50 who might give Gil a run for his money, you have perhaps 2 or 3 there; only 21 to go to reach "dozens"...

[Mike Schott]

I can only remember one hole at Rustic but I recall every shot at Riviera. Rustic was a pioneer in the current value based minimalist movement. It is an important course but far short of a great one.

John, I don't know why that is other than RC does not meet the qualities you value in a course. For me, and I've only played Rustic Canyon once and probably will never again, I remember 3 or 4 holes. I will likely never play Riviera so I can't say if I'd feel like you. But for sure they are very different courses in concept. Riviera will never play firm and fast. There's certainly room for both.

[Adam Lawrence]

John - I am not offended by your question and I actually don't think your initial question was designed to be a slight on Gil Hanse.  I think it was more directed at why there appears to be such group think in golf course architecture and why great jobs are not spread among architects that have proven themselves.

By all accounts, Gil does great work, just like C &C and Doak.   But why does Mike Keiser continually use the same people.  Why isn't he willing to use other qualified people that could use the star power that he provides.  And then why do other developers and existing courses just follow in step.  From a business perspective, I fully understand the model - if it isn't broke, don't fix it and these guys know my style and deliver a winning product.  So please, I am not criticizing Mike Keiser and if it was my money, I would probably do the same thing.  However, his ability to make "kings" in the industry is a rightful discussion on this board.

A couple of people on this string asked for names.  OK, here are some (obviously some of these people have gotten more "special" opportunities than others):

Kyle Phillips
Jeff Brauer
Keith Foster
Mike Nuzzo  
Steven Smyers
Michael DeVries
Dave Axland
I have not played one of his courses, but how about John's friend, Neal Meagher.

I too would like to see Keiser hire different architects, because there are a bunch of people I think could and would do some great work given the right opportunity.. But with the best will in the world, it is not his responsibility to give a break to a golf architect. Mike is a businessman who is doing a bunch of projects that he wants to succeed and even make some money. His job is to get the best results he can on each project. So it's easy to understand why he'd return to people who have done well for him in the past.

[Michael George]

.

[Michael George]

I too would like to see Keiser hire different architects, because there are a bunch of people I think could and would do some great work given the right opportunity.. But with the best will in the world, it is not his responsibility to give a break to a golf architect. Mike is a businessman who is doing a bunch of projects that he wants to succeed and even make some money. His job is to get the best results he can on each project. So it's easy to understand why he'd return to people who have done well for him in the past.

Adam - I agree with you fully.  That is why I said:

"From a business perspective, I fully understand the model - if it isn't broke, don't fix it and these guys know my style and deliver a winning product.  So please, I am not criticizing Mike Keiser and if it was my money, I would probably do the same thing."  

However, it really is a new dynamic that I am not sure has even happened in golf.  Does anyone know of a golf course developer that had the ability to create this much "buzz" for an architect's career?  I realize that the architect must have talent and in the end, is deserving of such credit, but he really has the ability to catapult a person's career....maybe more than any figure in the history of golf???  I don't know and would enjoy such a discussion historically.

[BCowan]

John - I am not offended by your question and I actually don't think your initial question was designed to be a slight on Gil Hanse.  I think it was more directed at why there appears to be such group think in golf course architecture and why great jobs are not spread among architects that have proven themselves.

By all accounts, Gil does great work, just like C &C and Doak.   But why does Mike Keiser continually use the same people.  Why isn't he willing to use other qualified people that could use the star power that he provides.  And then why do other developers and existing courses just follow in step.  From a business perspective, I fully understand the model - if it isn't broke, don't fix it and these guys know my style and deliver a winning product.  So please, I am not criticizing Mike Keiser and if it was my money, I would probably do the same thing.  However, his ability to make "kings" in the industry is a rightful discussion on this board.

A couple of people on this string asked for names.  OK, here are some (obviously some of these people have gotten more "special" opportunities than others):

Kyle Phillips
Jeff Brauer
Keith Foster
Mike Nuzzo  
Steven Smyers
Michael DeVries
Dave Axland
I have not played one of his courses, but how about John's friend, Neal Meagher.

Michael,

  Great post and I agree with you.  Jkava started a great thread.  I personally saw Hanse's drawing for a renovation for a private course, I wasn't impressed.  I would much rather see DeVries, Nuzzo, or Collins.  Also, Foster but he doesn't seem to be doing originals anymore.  The funny thing is, is it seems Mr Keiser took more chances with Kidd in the beginning than he is right now with a proven track record.  The Archie business seems similar to the Record business, everybody is looking for hits. 

[David Kelly]

Interesting to read how some answered the question with the intent of giving Gil much deserved props while enlightening JK, while others chose to be offended by the question.

Joe,
Can you really not recognize a disingenuous question when you see one?  What if posted a question asking what Joe Hancock has ever done except mediocre work for a few architects?

[Bill Seitz]

I can only remember one hole at Rustic but I recall every shot at Riviera.

...

 I have played Rustic close to a dozen times.

I'm sure I've played dozens of courses of which I have little memory of the individual holes, but I can't imagine playing a course a dozen times and only remembering one hole.  Are you sure Moriarty wasn't slipping you some something?  The funny thing is I can't think of any hole at Rustic that stands out so large against the rest that it would be the only truly memorable hole on the course.  It's not as if there's really a "17th at Sawgrass" sort of hole on that course.  

[John Kavanaugh]

I can only remember one hole at Rustic but I recall every shot at Riviera. Rustic was a pioneer in the current value based minimalist movement. It is an important course but far short of a great one.

John, I don't know why that is other than RC does not meet the qualities you value in a course. For me, and I've only played Rustic Canyon once and probably will never again, I remember 3 or 4 holes. I will likely never play Riviera so I can't say if I'd feel like you. But for sure they are very different courses in concept. Riviera will never play firm and fast. There's certainly room for both.

Riviera gets a bum rap for reasons that are clear to me but would be objectionable for some to hear. I have played the course a number of times in all weather conditions. It plays firm and fast if that is the hand it has been dealt. It plays perfectly responsive after and during a rain. Kikuyu is a wonderful surface that only requires imagination to master.

I think Rustic is a good course, one that I played every time I visited L.A. I even took a buddy along once and it was the only course we played. I don't think it is in the same league as Lakeside or in the same universe as Riviera. The most simple explanation I can give is that if I were a member of Lakeside or Riviera I doubt that I would ever play Rustic again.   Another would be...If Rustic were great than every review wouldn't mention how affordable it is, that just wouldn't matter.   It's an Oris.

[John Kavanaugh]

I can only remember one hole at Rustic but I recall every shot at Riviera.

...

 I have played Rustic close to a dozen times.

I'm sure I've played dozens of courses of which I have little memory of the individual holes, but I can't imagine playing a course a dozen times and only remembering one hole.  Are you sure Moriarty wasn't slipping you some something?  The funny thing is I can't think of any hole at Rustic that stands out so large against the rest that it would be the only truly memorable hole on the course.  It's not as if there's really a "17th at Sawgrass" sort of hole on that course.  

Bill,

Without looking it up, I believe it is the 12th hole that is a stone cold perfect short par 4.  As far as individual shots go I do remember the "Fazio" tee on 16 and the diagonal tee shot on 7.   I could be wrong.

[Joe Hancock]

Interesting to read how some answered the question with the intent of giving Gil much deserved props while enlightening JK, while others chose to be offended by the question.

Joe,
Can you really not recognize a disingenuous question when you see one?  What if posted a question asking what Joe Hancock has ever done except mediocre work for a few architects?

David,

I didn't read anything personal into the original question, so maybe I wasn't able to detect the disingenuousness within. If someone questioned my work, I would want to know why it is perceived that way, and, if I saw merit in the response I would attempt to change in a positive way. It really shouldn't become a personal issue, as long as the efforts are genuine and full hearted.

Joe

 

[John Kavanaugh]

Interesting to read how some answered the question with the intent of giving Gil much deserved props while enlightening JK, while others chose to be offended by the question.

Joe,
Can you really not recognize a disingenuous question when you see one?  What if posted a question asking what Joe Hancock has ever done except mediocre work for a few architects?

There isn't an architect in the world that wouldn't love for me to start this exact thread about them. This was simply a chance for Gil's fans to hit a softball out of the park. Sadly a few decided to take a swipe at me instead. Either way, Gil is the winner here.

[David Stamm]

I think John is correct about Lakeside. It is in another league. As in not even close as good as Rustic. Perhaps when it looked and played when it first was laid out by Behr, but not now. No way.

Riviera is great. It used to be "greater". As it sits now, I, and some on this forum who have told me in person, believe that if someone were to say that Rustic was Riviera's equal as they sit now, I would respect that. I believe Riviera is superior, but not by much. The kikuyu ruins alot of the shots there that Thomas and Bell intended.

[DMoriarty]

There isn't an architect in the world that wouldn't love for me to start this exact thread about them. This was simply a chance for Gil's fans to hit a softball out of the park. Sadly a few decided to take a swipe at me instead. Either way, Gil is the winner here.

So you were being an asshole to make Gil look good?  Mission accomplished.

[John Kavanaugh]

I think John is correct about Lakeside. It is in another league. As in not even close as good as Rustic. Perhaps when it looked and played when it first was laid out by Behr, but not now. No way.

Riviera is great. It used to be "greater". As it sits now, I, and some on this forum who have told me in person, believe that if someone were to say that Rustic was Riviera's equal as they sit now, I would respect that. I believe Riviera is superior, but not by much. The kikuyu ruins alot of the shots there that Thomas and Bell intended.

Please name one shot at Riviera that doesn't play with modern equipment as Thomas and Bell intended. The kikuyu is a perfect counter measure to the non spinning ball. Four is wonderful redan from any tee given the near infinite variables at our disposal today.

[Jud_T]

Please name one shot at Riviera that doesn't play with modern equipment as Thomas and Bell intended. The kikuyu is a perfect counter measure to the non spinning ball.

How about any shot out of the rough?  Unless your idea of an elite test is hitting off one of these:

[Jason Thurman]

Rustic Canyon is indeed a nice course and a good value, but you'd read some of the posts about it around here and think that it's without flaw. Likewise, I'm sure Hanse is a talented guy. I like the work of his that I've seen, and I'm more excited to see what he does with The Prairie Club (if Old School ever happens), Streamsong, and the Olympic course. However, you'd read posts about him around here and think that he's in the same league as Doak and Coore & Crenshaw. Maybe he will be upon completion of some of the high profile courses he has in the works, but his portfolio simply doesn't justify that right now - it lacks the depth of truly superb courses to back it up.

There's no shame in being listed alongside the guys that Michael George listed, especially when you have more high profile projects in the works than any of those guys at the moment. Hopefully Hanse delivers on those and justifies all the credit he receives, and hopefully Paul George returns to basketball and fulfills his promise as well.

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