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Daniel Jones

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Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2015, 05:51:03 PM »
The general area of mention. Perhaps "the glove" comes from the white service road which appears to make a pinky finger and palm?


Howard Riefs

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Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2015, 06:43:35 PM »
.....My concern with the naming system at Streamsong has nothing to do with the courses but with the resort. As we were driving from the Tampa airport, my girlfriend and I both joked that the name--which I explained to her had reportedly been chosen with the goal of attracting more women and couples--sounds more appropriate for a retirement community (and not just because of the parallel with swan song).

Benjamin -

My understanding was that the name was chosen to catch the eye of corporate meeting planners, who are primarily women. Essentially, same gender, just a different type of customer who can book large blocks of rooms.

Btw, very nice job with your course tours.  They made me want to hurry back to the resort.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 06:48:20 PM by Howard Riefs »
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2015, 07:38:34 PM »
Don't be surprised when the fourth course comes to fruition it gets a different name than a color and one very recognizable to students of golf history.

Sort of like "Old MacDonald?"

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2015, 08:01:24 PM »
Steve,

Quote
Talking with various people in-the-know, it is clear is that the golf side of the business is quite healthy and thriving, and the addition of more courses will certainly help sate the demand.

In my six visits in the peak season over the last 2 years I've never seen it busy enough that I felt that they had enough demand to require another course to sate it.  The afternoons especially were not very busy at all. 

The courses are terrific; the conditioning is great; the hotel is very good; and service is generally very good.  My impression is that despite having all that going for it, the two existing courses are not overbooked.  I'm sure it must have looked pretty busy given the Invitational you attended and I guess the sticker shock was lessened for the event.  My lament is that I'd like to be a regular (couple of times a winter) visitor but they are pricing it out of my league and the walking only policy is going to increasingly deter me from coming.  These are my issues, I know.


Benjamin,

Quote
But, to your point, a luxury resort with a month-and-a-half peak season will soon realize that $175 green fees don't cut it. And we know what the inevitable consequence of that will be.

Last week, in peak season the price was $225, not $175.  I expect the price to keep rising as time passes by.


Howard,

Quote
Quote from: Bryan Izatt on Today at 01:15:32 AM
We'll just have to wait and see if the cache of a Gil Hanse course will attract enough extra players from whatever demographic they are trying to attract to make it work out economically.

So there’s a clique of GCA aficionados who will only visit Streamsong after a Hanse course is built?

That’s a novel business strategy.
[/size]

Not sure I get your point.  I expect that a lot of customers with the money and time to go there probably don't have a clue about any of the three architects. Certainly if the target audience is female corporate event organizers, the architects are meaningless.  The hotel would be a strong selling feature.   ;)


John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2015, 08:14:23 PM »
Oddly enough, I had a civilian stop me at the gym and ask what I thought about Streamsong. He thought they needed a third course for him to ever return. It is his opinion that a third course will speed up play so walking 36 in the winter is not almost impossible.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2015, 08:49:33 PM »
Oddly enough, I had a civilian stop me at the gym and ask what I thought about Streamsong. He thought they needed a third course for him to ever return. It is his opinion that a third course will speed up play so walking 36 in the winter is not almost impossible.

I think that's a big reason right there.  Having their prime season in the shortest days of the year means it's hard to cater to the guys who want to play 36 holes in a day. 

A friend of mine was going to visit last week, but canceled because the place was fully booked ... after being there I surmised he meant the golf courses, and not the hotel.  He couldn't get an early-morning tee time.

Eric Smith

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Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2015, 09:14:35 PM »
A friend of mine was going to visit last week, but canceled because the place was fully booked ... after being there I surmised he meant the golf courses, and not the hotel.  He couldn't get an early-morning tee time.

Same thing happened to me last January so I went to Bandon instead ... one of the best mulligans I've ever taken!

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2015, 09:35:34 PM »
According to their leadership, yearly round counts are very, very strong and Tom is right about a dearth of early times and impairment of 36 holes play. It's clear a third course will be a distinct value add to the resort on many counts and a part of the long-term plan.

I believe the pricing is mostly set by Kemper and reflects a "Bandon-like" scale with seasonal discounts and attractive in-season package deals (fwiw....my wife and her friend are getting a room for two nights and 72 holes this coming weekend for quite a reasonable #). I'd also bet prices actually go down a wee bit before stabilizing and maybe(?) eventually climbing higher. Kemper Sports and the Lesnicks who run golf at Streamsong are no dummies. They will price the product at what the market will bear. Successful pricing is a simple algorithm.
 
I suspect a new course, especially one by Gil Hanse, will be a huge win for attracting even more visitors, unique and repeat. Like most of you, I love the traditional approach for walking, however IMHO, later pm rounds should allow for carts and I wasn't shy about expounding that view. We'll see, but regardless, I feel very blessed to have as high a quality venue only 6 hrs door-to-door from my home in Central Jersey.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2015, 11:05:00 PM »
Steve,

Out of curiosity, did your wife and friend book online or over the phone.  I've heard from a number of people that deals can be worked out sometimes with the reservation agents or even through Expedia.

I tried looking at packages last week on the web site and found it totally impenetrable.  It wouldn't allow me to enter a check-in date and a check out date two days later even though it said a two night minimum is required for the golf packages.  I didn't even see a 2 day 72 hole package at all.  It was impossible to figure out the price for a given two night stay from the web site.

I ended up trying to book a tee time for a single online only to find you can't do that either - you can only book threesomes and foursomes online.  You have to phone for singles or 2 balls.

This was my pet peeve with Streamsong. Their online presence is pretty, but not effective.

 

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2015, 11:54:03 PM »
When I was at Streamsong it seemed to me that some type of course in the area between the hotel and the clubhouse could be fun - something like the Horse Course at the Prairie Club or the par 3 course at Bandon. 

Peter Pallotta

Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2015, 12:16:00 AM »
Sometimes I'm shocked by how dumb I can be, and how I can miss completely what is obvious to everyone else. For example, I just realized while reading this thread that, for golfers on the east coast Streamsong offers a chance to play courses by not one but two of the best architects in the world today....at the same place! I have never played one of Tom's courses nor have I played one by C&C -- but now I can do both, all in one trip and without changing hotels. That's really cool. And then I thought --I'm happy for Gil Hanse because he sounds like a very fine fellow who does very  fine work; but to be honest, there's a part of me that thinks it would've been an even cooler experience if I could play a Jack Nicklaus course along with the other two. Now THAT would be a first anywhere!
Peter

Stephen Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2015, 12:34:05 AM »
Sometimes I'm shocked by how dumb I can be, and how I can miss completely what is obvious to everyone else. For example, I just realized while reading this thread that, for golfers on the east coast Streamsong offers a chance to play courses by not one but two of the best architects in the world today....at the same place! I have never played one of Tom's courses nor have I played one by C&C -- but now I can do both, all in one trip and without changing hotels. That's really cool. And then I thought --I'm happy for Gil Hanse because he sounds like a very fine fellow who does very  fine work; but to be honest, there's a part of me that thinks it would've been an even cooler experience if I could play a Jack Nicklaus course along with the other two. Now THAT would be a first anywhere!
Peter

Not necessarily. Although they are not part of the same ownership, Sand Hills and Dismal River allow you to do just what you stated. The main issue is not proximity, but accessibility.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 12:36:11 AM by Stephen Davis »

Benjamin Litman

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Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2015, 12:35:46 AM »
Out of curiosity, did your wife and friend book online or over the phone.  I've heard from a number of people that deals can be worked out sometimes with the reservation agents or even through Expedia.
 

Bryan, when I went with my girlfriend in the last week of December, we booked the week before by calling Streamsong directly--after I had a similarly ineffective experience with the website. I thought the rate we secured was very reasonable--$358 (exclusive of tax) per night, with one round of walking golf per day for each of us. (That rate reflects, in part, that the week we were there was the final pre-peak week of the season--which, to me, was odd, given how ideal of a time that is for most people to travel.) As soon as we arrived and realized our room in the lodge was on the non-lake side, we asked the front desk for an upgrade to a room across the hall on the lake side and received it for free. We subsequently extended our stay by a few nights and a few rounds and again secured great rates by speaking to the staff we had come to know during our time there.

All of which proves the old adage that lawyers abide: If you want to get something done, pick up the phone. If you really want to get something done, come into my office.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 09:20:06 AM by Benjamin Litman »
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2015, 02:07:49 AM »
Benjamin,

That sounds like a very reasonable rate given the quality of the golf and hotel.  The peak season doesn't start until January 10th apparently.  I was just on the wrong side it seems.  You rate appears to be about half the rate showing on the web site.  I wonder how many suckers fall for the web site prices.  All of which confirms your old adage.

Benjamin Litman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2015, 09:24:16 AM »
January 10 might well be the start of the peak season, but I can confirm that rates definitely increase on January 1 (the last day we were there). In any event, I would say the adage applies especially in the case of newbies--not newbies to this site (although I see I've graduated to "Jr. Member" status now), but newbies to the market, who are always reluctant to turn down business. As Steve said, the market for Streamsong will eventually stabilize. But that means the market is unstable, and easier to exploit, now.
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

K Rafkin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2015, 05:37:14 AM »
Bill coore was asked to describe other potential course sites at Streamsong by golf digests David Owen.  In this excerpt Bill Coore gives a brief description of Gil Hanse's site as well as other future sites.

"I asked Bill Coore whether he had noticed any other likely course sites during his time on the property. He said he had, and that discussions about more courses had focused on one area in particular. "It lies to the south of the Red course and across a wetland area, and it's excellent," he told me. "It's rolling sand, rather than big dunes and lakes, and it's actually in an area that has been reclaimed from the mining operation. From a distance, it's going to look a bit bland, because it doesn't have the giant dune ridges, and yet when you get on it you see that it twists and turns and rolls. And there are other areas, too, including some recently mined ones. Those would need a lot of earthwork to fit the holes in, but they could be extremely dramatic, in terms of the landforms. It depends on who does the courses. Someone else in our business might look at it and say, 'I'd rather be in that.' ""

Rob Marshall

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Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2015, 06:24:57 PM »
My pro is at Streamsong this week. He sent me a picture yesterday of the controlled burn to start clearing for the new course.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2015, 02:40:19 PM »
A segment on Streamsong Black that "Morning Drive" aired during Architect Week.


http://www.golfchannel.com/media/building-new-streamsong-black-course/
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2015, 09:59:26 AM »
Is the opening of the Black scheduled for October 2017 ?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 03:26:47 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

J Cabarcos

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2015, 10:51:24 AM »
I was at Streaming a week ago and was told that the scheduled open for the Black would be for late fall 2017.  From my viewpoint on the Red facing south to the Black, they have a lot of work on their hand right now with earth moving vehicles.




Chiming in on how occupied the resort is from my latest experience, I can only say that their was difficulty gathering early weekday tee times for the Red & Blue with only two weeks lead time.  As for the actual hotel, plenty of room abound.  I am sure that the 3rd course will help with that situation.

Howard Riefs

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Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2016, 10:57:01 AM »
Below is the routing for Hanse's new Black course (shared by Matt Ginella via twitter). Interesting features include:

- par 73
- double greens for 13th hole
- 900-yard difference between tips and next set of tees
- three short par 4s of 370 yards or less from tips
- three-hole practice loop







https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/690889466538516480
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2016, 03:33:02 PM »
Howard,

Thanks.

The yardage differences between the courses is interesting.

At par 73, the Red course would seem to be relatively short, but, very user friendly.

The Black is for those fortunate enough to be long ball hitters.

No alternate tee for # 14, ala Pacfic Dunes ?

When do they start grassing ?

Thanks again for the rendering and scorecards.

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2016, 03:46:57 PM »
I thought that was funny too, Pat.


7566 is long for any course, but 6655 par 73 is like 6500 par 72, or 6200 par 70.


GCA dogma says I should be stricken down for caring...but here's hoping for a 7000y hybrid tee!
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

K Rafkin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2016, 04:34:01 PM »
Howard, thanks for posting the picture.


-I wonder how the two greens on 13 plays out.  Most holes that I've seen with double greens tend to use one green much more than the other.  It would be pretty cool if both were left open and you're group could go ahead and pick the one you want to play.  I wonder if there were just two awesome green sites and it would of been a shame to of left one unbuilt. 


-Thats a 1000yrds difference between the Red and the Black tees.  Hopefully someone playing the red (like myself) won't have to walk 1000 extra yards.


-Holes 12-18 play though what was being called the glove (which sort of resembles a baseball glove).  I believe this is the the most interesting part of the property with the most elevation gain and it was saved for final stretch.


-16 is a pretty sharp dogleg.


-Looks like very little water comes into play


-It actually appears as though there are at least 4 greens on the practice loop.  The practice loop opens up a whole different variety of hole combos you can play while chasing the sunlight (assuming the course isn't all that busy). 


Where we are currently, I think its fairly bold to build a course with only 3 one holes.  Now a days i think it would be much easier to sell a course with  six par 3s than three par 3s, and Streamsong and Richard Mack deserve a lot of credit.




Tim Gavrich

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Re: Hanse announced as architect for new course at Streamsong
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2016, 05:11:29 PM »
Based just on the yardages, I count nine holes (the five par 5s, plus 2, 6, 14 and 15) from the Black tees where I'm thinking I'll have a short iron or wedge approach, and I'm not a super-long hitter. The course isn't going to play nearly as long as the total yardage because so much of it is tied up in par fives.
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